The Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets used its 9 September 2025 hearing on unidentified anomalous phenomena to surface classified sensor evidence, sworn first-hand operational accounts, and systemic critiques of the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office's information-control protocols, thereby exposing a persistent transparency failure across the United States national-security apparatus.1
Hearing Logistics
Congressional venue HVC-210, 10:00 a.m.–1:47 p.m. EDT; live stream and full record archived by the House Oversight and Accountability Committee. Chairwoman Anna Paulina Luna's opening statement framed UAP secrecy as a governance-risk vector and foregrounded whistle-blower protection as a requisite control measure.1
Witness Matrix
Sensor Evidence Entered into Record
Rep. Eric Burlison introduced MQ-9 electro-optical radar footage from 30 Oct 2024 over the Gulf of Aden: an AGM-114 Hellfire impacts a self-luminous orb; kinetic energy disperses without structural compromise, after-impact trajectory unaltered. No aerothermal bloom or debris signature observed, implying energy-deflection or phase-state transition beyond known materials science. Witnesses affirmed absence of any allied or adversary system exhibiting such resilience.56
Whistle-blower Narratives and Corroborative Parameters
Nuccetelli reported 2003-05 incursions by 'building-sized' objects violating Vandenberg launch exclusion zones, tracked on phased-array radar with atypical acceleration envelopes; investigations terminated without command guidance. Wiggins detailed multi-sensor cross-validation (SPY-1D(V), EO/IR, acoustics) of a Tic Tac exiting the ocean and merging with airborne conspecifics—absence of cavitation plume and sonic shock attested to unconventional propulsion modality. Borland documented retaliatory clearance downgrades after submitting incident dossiers linking Langley sighting to 'legacy special-access UAP programs'.23
Committee Interrogation
Rep. Tim Burchett pressed on contractor custodianship of recovered artefacts; Knapp delineated a money-laundering analogue in which proprietary laboratories mask programme lineage from Freedom-of-Information Act reach. Rep. Scott Perry probed command-level after-action absence despite multi-billion-dollar asset proximity, highlighting a procedural lacuna in event escalation.3
Systemic Critique of AARO
Testimony converged on AARO's insufficient declassification throughput, inconsistent case-closure rubric, and opaque budget execution, reinforcing bipartisan concern that current classification regimes obstruct operational risk assessment and erode public trust.32
Legislative Trajectory
Chairwoman Luna signalled imminent markup of whistle-blower reinforcement amendments and compulsory contractor audit provisions within the FY-2026 National Defense Authorization Act; parallel Senate initiatives under consideration. Defence-community media predict statutory reporting standards for multi-sensor anomaly datasets by Q2 2026.2
Next Analytical Steps
The committee directed AARO to deliver (i) full-resolution sensor data and telemetry from the 2024 Hellfire intercept, (ii) a classified annex mapping contractor UAP holdings, and (iii) proposed uniform reporting protocols for fleet and squadron commanders due 30 days post-hearing.3
An exhaustive catalog of primary-source audiovisual exhibits and sworn witness accounts from the 9 September 2025 congressional hearing on unidentified anomalous phenomena is presented below, followed by source-resolved counter-analyses disputing their authenticity or interpretation.
Footage Inventory
Witness Profiles
Technical Counter-Analyses
Hellfire-orb clip Metabunk analysts note absence of missile fragmentation plume and suggest a grazing R9X kinetic round that skipped past a reflective weather balloon or ISR target drone; video lacks range gating and fails to show laser designator coding—indicators of possible CGI overlay or context loss. Chain-of-custody break and anonymous sourcing flagged as disqualifying for evidentiary weight.12
USS Jackson sequence Frame-by-frame photogrammetry on the released crop yields no parallax cues; brightness clipping saturates outline, consistent with hot-pixel bloom on a stabilized turret. Metabunk thread reconstructs horizon line and estimates object altitude below 150 m, compatible with consumer-grade quadrotors; synchronized departure interpreted as operator-induced sensor pan rather than target acceleration.13
Vandenberg accounts No video or radar stills have surfaced. Skeptics stress eyewitness memory decay and misidentification of missile-defense test artefacts; archival range-safety logs list multiple illumination-flare firings on the cited night. Absent data release, incident remains anecdotal.
AARO response Office declined on-record validation; internal memo leaked to Defense reporters states all three cases remain 'unresolved pending sensor triage,' while Hellfire clip 'shows compression artefacts inconsistent with ISR native format,' undermining probative value.14
Synthesis
All publicly disclosed media from the 9 September 2025 session either lacks authenticated provenance or is constrained by significant data redaction, leaving physical interpretation indeterminate. Concurrently, sworn testimonies describe sensor-corroborated flight dynamics that exceed conventional aeronautics, yet remain unsustained by released documentation. Critical evaluation therefore hinges on forthcoming classified annexes and AARO telemetry disclosures mandated by the committee deadline.
Procedural Context
Sensor-Provenance Matrix
Chain-of-Custody Ledger (Publicly Described)
Budgetary Traceability (Oversight Targets)
- Program elements: Request crosswalk of relevant Program Element numbers (PEs) and budget lines from FY-2022–FY-2025 SAC-D marks and OUSD(C) P-1/P-40 documents referencing anomaly exploitation, materials analysis, or special access logistics. Cite which budget lines, if any, route to Federally Funded Research and Development Centers and prime contractors alleged to hold materials.3
- Contract vehicles: Seek Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity task orders and Other Transaction Authority agreements aligned to any UAP-related exploitation activities held outside FOIA reach.
Comparative Statutory Synopsis (Whistleblowers)
References: statutory text and committee materials15163
Retaliation Chronology (Dylan Borland)
Foreign Analogue Capsule (USSR “Thread 3”)
George Knapp relayed documentation and interviews indicating the USSR’s Ministry of Defense ran a multi-year program cataloging UAP and analyzing performance, culminating in a 1982 ICBM-base incident where missile launch controls reportedly cycled to an active state during a prolonged UAP observation before returning to normal. Soviet investigators could not attribute the behavior to power anomalies, framing strategic-stability implications for modern incident management.4
Risk and Opportunity Assessment
Glossary and Acronym Register
- EMCON: Emissions control; operating posture limiting active emissions.
- SPY-1D(V): Aegis shipboard phased-array radar variant.
- SAR: Synthetic Aperture Radar; forms images from radar returns over motion.
- MWIR: Mid-wave infrared spectral band.
- NCIS: Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
- P-1/P-40: DoD budget exhibits (procurement and RDT&E detail).
Each numbered footnote includes a public URL. Committee archival hashes for exhibits and submissions are pending assignment by the Clerk and will be appended when available.
This hearing, held by the Task Force on Declassification of Federal Secrets, focuses on Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena, government secrecy, and the need for transparency and whistleblower protection. Chaired by Representative Anna Paulina Luna, the session features testimony from military veterans and experts who have either directly witnessed UAP events or investigated the government's handling of them.
The hearing opens with bipartisan calls for accountability. Chairwoman Anna Paulina Luna and Ranking Member Jasmine Crockett emphasize national security, safety of military personnel, and the public's right to know. They voice frustration with the Department of Defense and intelligence agencies for stonewalling, over-classification, and retaliation.
- Jeffrey Nuccetelli, a former United States Air Force security forces NCO, details multiple UAP incursions at Vandenberg Air Force Base between 2003 and 2005, including a luminous red square and a silent, football-field-sized triangular craft demonstrating extraordinary flight characteristics.
- Alexandro Wiggins, an active-duty United States Navy senior chief, recounts a 2023 USS Jackson incident where a Tic Tac-shaped object emerged from the ocean, linked with three similar objects, and then departed with synchronized acceleration without a sonic boom.
- Dylan Borland, a United States Air Force veteran and federal whistleblower, describes a 2012 sighting of a large, silent triangular craft over Langley Air Force Base and the severe professional retaliation he faced after reporting knowledge of legacy UAP programs.
- George Knapp, an investigative journalist, provides historical and international context, including US crash-retrieval claims and Soviet-era “Thread 3” research.
Speaker Topics
Anna Paulina Luna
This hearing of the task force on declassification of federal secrets will come to an order. Welcome everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time. Additionally, without any objection, the following members are waved onto the task force for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's hearing. Representative Bigs of Arizona, Representative Bagage of Alaska, Representative Oggs of Tennessee, Representative Titus of Nevada, and Representative Moscowitz of Florida. There are no objections. I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement. Good morning and welcome to the hearing regarding UAP disclosures. For too long, the issue of unidentified anomalous phenomena, commonly known as UAPs has been shrouded in secrecy, stigma, and in some case outright dismissal. Today, I want to state clearly that this is not science fiction or creating speculation. This is about national security, government accountability and the American people's right to the truth. I've spoken now to a number of whistleblowers from the military to include the infamous Eglin Air Force base incident that occurred when myself and former representative Matt Gates, as well as representative Berchet, followed up on a lead from multiple active duty Air Force pilot whistleblowers that alleged that the United States Air Force was covering up UAP activity at Eglin Air Force base. We have heard from a number of whistleblowers, specifically military pilots that the reason for not coming forward publicly is out of fear that speaking out would cost them their flight status and potentially their careers. This is unacceptable. We cannot protect our airspaces if our best trained observers are silenced. We cannot advance science if we refuse to ask questions, and we cannot maintain trust in government if we keep the American people in the dark. Now Congress has tried to fix this problem. Congress tried to create formal channels through the all domain anomaly resolution office, also known as Arrow, and the intelligence community Inspector General for service members and officials to make disclosures. But the reality, the reports come in are often to brush aside, slow walked or met with skepticism rather than serious investigation. Recently, the former Arrow director known as Sean Kilpatrick attacked our witnesses and members on this committee. It should be noted that he's a documented liar and brings into question what his purpose at Arrow really was if it was not to follow up on investigations and disclose his findings to members of Congress. A former deputy assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, Chris Mellon described a report published by Arrow that found no evidence that any USG investigation, academic sponsored research or official review panel has confirmed any siting of UAP represented extraterrestrial technology. as the most airridden and unsatisfactory government report I can recall reading during after decades of government service. Mello Mellon further noted that this was the first Arrow report submitted to Congress without the Director of National Intelligence's sign off and seemingly excluded input from any scholars or experts who have studied or written it exclusively about this topic extensively about this topic as would normally be in any other case in this field. Mellon determined that this report failed to fulfill the congressional mandate under which it was required, omitted entire agencies with known investigations or activities related to UAPs and omitted any discussion of efforts to hide classified or unclassified information about UAP. Such efforts were under addressed by the report despite the existence of agency records and investigations concurring with them including those at US Customs and Border protection. If we set up offices and oversight bodies only to let them become graveyards for testimony or worse yet ruses for pretending to investigate when in actuality there was no follow up, then we are not doing our jobs. In recent months, Congress has also been presented with evidence that points to technologies that to our knowledge are beyond our current capabilities. It is our duty as elected representatives to follow the facts wherever they lead and to ensure that those facts are not buried under classification stamps or bureaucratic excuses. Let me be clear, whether UAPs represent adversarial technology, natural phenomena, or something beyond current human understanding, Congress has a responsibility to investigate. If these objects are foreign in origin, then they pose a direct threat to our national security. And if they represent something unknown, they demand rigorous scientific inquiry, not ridicule, not secrecy and not silence. The stakes are very high. Adversaria nations are not waiting for us to catch up. They are studying these phenomena as well aggressively as as multiple nations have also announced their own parliamentary investigations into this very topic. If we are to continue to hide information from ourselves, we risk strategic surprise. If we continue to ignore our pilots and service members as well as countless government whistleblowers, we risk losing their trust. And if we continue to shield the truth from the public, we risk eroding the very foundation of democratic accountability. This is why this hearing matters. This is not about fueling speculation. This is about demanding the basic transparency from the Department of Defense and the intelligence community and other military contractors. It is about asking the questions every American has the right to ask. What do we know? What don't we know? and why in a free society are we being told so little? A major barrier to this committee's inquiry into UAPs has been the lack of cooperation and transparency from the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. In preparation for previous UAP hearings, the committee repeatedly asked the Department of Defense to allow members to view videos and files related to UAP incidences. Unfortunately, the Department of Defense notified the committee staff that due to the department's special access program rules, only members of the House Armed Service Committee as well as the Defense subcommittee on House appropriation, also known as Hack D were allowed to be read in onto such programs. For a non-committee member to be allowed to view these documents and videos, individual members must be approved by the chairman and ranking member of both Hak and Hak D. Independent SAP oversight has presented a consistent problem for Congress as well as program budgets are classified. Additionally, oversight reporting to Congress is classified and only provided to the authorizing and appropriation committees of jurisdiction. The American people are not fragile. They do not to be need to be shielded like children from reality. What they cannot tolerate and what they will not forgive is a government that withholds the truth and punishes those who dare to speak up. I want to close with this. Future generations will look back at this moment and ask what we did when presented with the unknown. Did we look away, embarrassed or afraid, or did we pursue the truth in with courage. I intend to be on the side of truth, transparency, and accountability, and I hope my colleagues on this task force will be able to do the same. To quote a few elected officials, Senator Schumer has stated, multiple credible sources allege a constitutional crisis over UFOs. Senator Rounds has stated that these are brilliant individuals and they are not making this stuff up. And our current Secretary of State, Marco Rubio has stated very high clearances and high positions within our government in regards to these whistleblowers. Senator McConnell also described these whistleblowers as stating incredible and the witnesses today are not alone. In fact, they're far from it. In fact, 34 senior military government and intelligent officials have broken their silence. This includes Senator Senator now Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Senator Rounds, Senator Gillibrand, General Jim Clapper, the former Director of the Government government's UAP Task Force, the former head of aviation security for the White House National Security Council, the former Secretary of Defense and many more. Again to uh to quote Senator um Secretary of State Rubio in an upcoming documentary known as the Age of Disclosure, even presidents have been operating on a need to know basis that begins to spin out of control. And to quote Senator Gillibrand, who also went public in this documentary, it's not acceptable to have secret parts of this government that no one ever sees. It's time for the fundamental truths of UAP to be revealed to our nation's leaders and the public. It's time for the US government to exercise transparency. And with that, I yield to ranking member Crockett for the opening statement.
Jasmine Crockett
Thank you so much, Madam Chair. At a time of increasing distrust in government, it is important for Congress to take action to restore the government's credibility. Bringing transparency to an issue of great public interest is a step toward doing just that. So I thank Chairwoman Luna for calling this bipartisan hearing to discuss unidentified anomalous phenomena or UAP, which is today's term for what was commonly known as UFO's unidentified flying objects. And while some people think of flying saucers when they hear these terms, it is vital that we focus on the real world's impact of UAPs on critical infrastructure, civilian safety, and national security. There is good reason to believe that most UAPs have origins far closer to home. Currently, NASA has not found any evidence that any UAPs have an extraterrestrial origin. Our adversaries are working to develop new capabilities to gain military advantages, and those efforts are likely explanation for the the mysteries that we have observed. Nevertheless, the federal government has a responsibility to the American people to investigate and provide transparent disclosures about every incident. The federal government is equally obligated to protect those who report what they've seen, especially to commanding officers and supervisors. And Congress should do everything in its power to protect whistleblowers and conduct oversight of agencies that are failing to provide that protection. Democracy depends on transparency and transparency often relies on the courage of individuals willing to risk their careers, reputations, and in some cases their personal safety to tell the truth. So I look forward to hearing from the witnesses today. We should welcome their accounts and acknowledge the bravery they have shown to come before us. We must ensure that all whistleblowers feel that they can come to Congress to tell their stories without fear of retaliation or professional consequences. We need transparency not just to make better policy, but also to ensure that information flows between all those who need it. There are too many tragic examples in our history where information lapses and a lack of cross agency coordination led to disaster. Just this year, failure to communicate between FAA and the Department of Defense led to tragedy over the Potomic. The Biden Harris Administration sought to eliminate some of these lapses when it established the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office at the Department of Defense. Arrow can convene sources from all branches of military, the FAA and NASA to create a comprehensive picture of what is happening in our skies. Some UAP reports have perfectly normal explanations, satellites, consumer drones, weather balloons, even pranks, but we need to track down each and every UAP. The United States has millions of eyes in the sky, both electronic and human, but only the combination of civilian, commercial, and military sources can begin to create a complete picture. So we need to ensure that people can come forward and report what they have seen to the relevant authorities, and they have to have the right to do so without fear of retaliation. This country has a history of dedicated public servants standing up for what is right, even in the face of potential consequences, from the Pentagon papers to Watergate to torture programs, whistleblowers have not only informed the public, but also empowered Congress to fulfill its constitutional duty of oversight. Past Congresses have written laws to grant legal protection for whistleblowers, and it is up to us to work responsibly with all sources to hold the executive branch accountable. We are here today to listen to the stories of those who have witnessed events of interest to the American people and to support the policies that cultivate an environment that welcomes and protects whistleblowers. I hope this hearing will be an example of the respect and protection whistleblowers deserve and the importance of conducting oversight of the federal government. I yield back.
Anna Paulina Luna
I am pleased to welcome the panel of witnesses for today's hearing. I'd first like to welcome Mr. Jeffrey Nuccetelli. He's a United States Air Force Veteran and a career federal employee with more than 20 years of experience in national security, law enforcement, and public administration. Next, we have Mr. Alexandro Wiggins, Mr. Wiggins is currently serving as a senior Chief operation specialist in the United States Navy. Mr. Wiggins is testifying in his personal capacity today and not on behalf of the United States Navy. Next, I would like to recognize the gentlewoman from Nevada, Representative Titus.
Dina Titus
Thank you very much, Madam Chairman, ranking members for allowing me to sit with you on this panel today. Uh, I'm honored to be able to introduce a witness here who is from my district, George Nap, who has been the definitive uh expert and reporter on this topic that you're exploring today. UAPs or UFOs. Uh, George is a longtime friend, I'll say that up front, but a very respected journalist and a recognized expert in this field, uh, nationally and internationally. Just a little something about George. He came to Las Vegas in 1979 and joined KLS Television station as a general assignment reporter in 1981. Since 1995, he's been the chief investigative reporter for that channel. He also hosts a national radio show you can listen to on Coast- to- Coast AM, which covers many of the paranormal topics that y'all are discussing. Over the years, George has been, as I said, recognized for his work. He's been honored with the Peabody Award, the Dupont Award, the Edward Merrow Award, and 27 different regional Emmys for his investigative reporting. Indeed, he has told Nevada's story with clarity, with objectivity and with integrity. So I know that his testimony today is going to be of great interest and value to this committee. So thank you very much.
Anna Paulina Luna
Next, we have Mr. Dylan Borland. Mr. Borland is a United States Air Force veteran and has a long career in federal service. And finally, I'd like to introduce Mr. Joe Spielberger, a senior policy council at the project of government oversight. Pursuant to committee rule nine G, the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hand. Do you solemnly swear and or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth and the nothing but the truth to help you God. Let the record show that the witnesses answered in affirmative. Thank you, you may take your seat. We appreciate you being here today and I look forward to hearing your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and it will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statements to five minutes, but I understand you have a lot to get through. So if it goes a little over, don't worry about it. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow and when the red light comes on, your five minutes have expired and we'll ask you to please wrap it up. I now recognize Mr. Mr. Nutelli for his opening statement.
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
Good morning. Thank you, Chairwoman Luna, ranking member Crockett and members of the task force for giving us the opportunity to testify today. My name is Jeffrey Nucitelli. I'm a former military police officer with 16 years of active duty service in the US Air Force. I'm here today because the American people have both the right and the responsibility to know the truth about unidentified aerial phenomenon. That truth remains hidden, classified and silenced by fear, retaliation, stigma, and confusion. Today, we are here to help break that silence. Between 2003 and 2005, five UAP incidents occurred at Vandenberg Air Force base, home to the national missile defense project, a top national security priority. At the time, we were conducting launches deemed by the national reconnaissance office as the most important in 25 years. These were historic launches. These facilities were vital and they were repeatedly visited by UAP. Each incident was witnessed by multiple personnel, documented, investigated, and reported up the chain of command. We sent information up, but we got no guidance down on how to handle these events. I personally witnessed one of these events and investigated others as they occurred. Six other service members have provided me with the information that I will share with you today. The incursions began on October 14th, 2003 when Boeing contractors reported a massive glowing red square silently hovering over two missile defense sites. After several minutes, it drifted further east onto the base and vanished over the hills. This event, now known as the Vandenberg Red Square was referenced by representative Luna at the first hearing on this topic. Official Air Force records of this event are in possession by Arrow and the FBI. Later that night, while I was on duty, security guards at a critical launch site reported a bright, fast-moving object over the ocean. I responded to the incident. Chaos ensued over the radio as the object approached rapidly. I heard my friend screaming, it's coming right at us. It's coming right for us and now it's right here. Moments later, I heard them say that it had shot off and was gone. When I arrived on scene, I talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive triangular craft larger than a football field that hovered silently for about 45 seconds over their entry control point before shooting away at impossible speed. About a week later, another patrol reported a light over the ocean behaving erratically, believing it might be an unannounced aircraft, they declared an emergency and an armed response force responded. Before the forces could arrive, the object descended and either landed or hovered on our flight line and then took off again at impossible speed. The witnesses to this event were threatened and intimidated afterward. They were told to keep quiet and think about what they were reporting. After that, things did get quiet until about 2005 when another patrol reported a massive triangular craft larger than a C-130 silently floating over the installation. He watched it for a few minutes, it traveled west and disappeared into the night. And then I had my own encounter again in 2005. I was off duty, sitting in my backyard with two other police officers when we noticed what first appeared to be a satellite in orbit, but it wasn't acting like a satellite. The light was strange, it was pulsing and then it started to maneuver. It dropped in elevation. At times it would vanish from view and reappear in a different location in the sky, and eventually it reappeared 200 feet over my house. It was a 30 foot diameter sphere of light. My friends and I watched it for a moment, and then it gently accelerated and traveled up and disappeared into the stars. These events profoundly changed my life and the lives of my friends. We stand at a pivotal moment in history. The question is no longer whether these events are real, but whether we have the courage to face them. True leadership requires vision, a willingness to confront the unknown with transparency and resolve. So I ask the Congress to help we the people enact this vision. There are three goals, fund independent research and treat UAP study with the same seriousness as we would any other scientific field. Two, end secrecy and over classification. Transparency is the foundation of truth. Without it, witnesses like us are dismissed. Three, protect the witnesses. Many stay silent out of fear for their careers, reputations, and the safety of their families. Protect them and you will embolden others to join this cause. These phenomenon challenge our deepest assumptions about reality, consciousness and our place in the universe. Exploring them can unlock transformative breakthroughs in technology, biology and human understanding. Let this be the moment when America chooses courage over fear, transparency over secrecy, and progress over stagnation. Let's show the world that our nation leads not only through strength, but through fearless pursuit of the truth. Thank you.
Anna Paulina Luna
Thank you, Mr. Nuccetelli. I now recognize Chief Wiggins for his opening statement.
Alexandro Wiggins
Good morning, Chairwoman Luna, ranking member Crockett and members of the task force and the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Alexandro Wiggins. I'm an active duty US Navy operation specialist, senior chief petty officer, father of three and dedicated American testifying today in my personal capacity. The views I share are my own and I do not represent the official positions of the Department of the Navy or any subordinate organization. On the evening of February 15th, 2023 at approximately 1915 PST, in the whiskey 291 warning area off the coast of Southern California, I was serving on board USS Jackson. During that period, I moved between the interior Communication Center, ICC1, and the bridge wing correlating the sensor pitcher with visual observations, part of my routine responsibilities for surface and air pitcher management. What I observed and what our crew recorded was not consistent with conventional aircraft or drones as they appear on our system. A self-luminous tic tac shaped object emerged from the ocean before linking up with three other similar objects. The four then disappeared simultaneously with a high synchronized near instantaneous acceleration. I observed no Sonic boom and no conventional propulsion signatures. No exhaust plume, no control surface articulation on the Sapphire image system. Shortly after the synchronized departure, radar tracks dropped. These observations were multisensor and recorded inside of ICC1 with time location overlay visible in our source frames that have been made public by journalists. From my experience operating in this region over many years and consistent with our public characterized encounters, unidentified objects recur in United States Operation areas off Southern California. That fact alone does not tell us what they are. But it does argue the systematic stigma-free reporting and for the preservation of sensor data so analysts can evaluate safe and intelligence implications with rigor. I want to underscore three points for the task force and the committee. Aviation and maritime safety. When crews and watch standers observe objects that maneuver or accelerate in ways that does not match known profiles and do not and do so near our ships and aircraft. That is first and foremost a safety issue. Standardized checklist and training should ensure we capture the best possible sensor data in real time, including IR settings, slant range, estimates and bearing and range altitude snapshots and immediate change of chain of custody for any recordings. Reporting without stigma, protection without retribution. Sailors need to know that reporting UAP encounters will not harm their careers. Congress can help by reinforcing witness protection and by directing the relevant office to maintain confidential, detigmatized channels for service members who step forward with data. Declassification and transparency were possible. The task force declassification mission is directly relevant here. Where operational security permits releasing metadata preserved sensor excerts or at least technical summaries would improve public trust and accelerate outside scientific scrutiny. That includes, when feasible, the time geo reference IR frames and radar parameters needed for independent analysis. To be clear, I am not here to make claims beyond my lane. I am here to provide a firsthand account of what I saw, what our systems recorded, and why I why it matters for safety, for intelligence, and public confidence. My request to you is practical. Help us capture, protect, fairly evaluate the evidence and provide a safe pathway for those in uniform to report it. In closing, I want to thank the committee and the task force for holding this hearing and for the play and for placing this discussion in a forum where evidence can be examined carefully and openly. I appreciate your attention and stand ready to answer your questions. Thank you.
Anna Paulina Luna
Thank you, Chief. I now recognize Mr. Knapp for his opening statement.
George Knapp
Good morning, Chairwoman Luna, uh ranking member, Ms. Crockett, and uh members of the task force, and Dina Titus. I just knew we were going to get you involved in this topic at one point. Great to see you here. I'm George Napp, chief investigative reporter at KLS TV in Las Vegas. I began my pursuit of this weird mystery way back in 1987. And for 38 years, I've always approached this as a news story. It's not a matter of faith or belief to me, it's a story, and it's an important one. I'm proud to be here alongside these witnesses today, men who have seen strange things and step forward to tell the world about it. Whistleblowers and witnesses who step up are routinely insulted, belittled, or worse. They risk their reputations, their careers, their clearances, their livelihoods, and sometimes, uh, much more than that, even their freedom. I know that one of the goals of the task force here is to figure out ways to protect whistleblowers and witnesses, and it's a tall order because so many of the things that happen to witnesses like these are extralegal. Uh, they're carried out by persons unknown. As Mr. Dave Grush, sitting up at the top of the room, knows all too well, including events in recent days that have happened to him. I want to share a couple of things that I've I've learned along the way on this long journey. And I submitted most of that in written form because I I estimate that my statement here today would take about four and a half hours. So I'm I'm going to try to jump over and and touch on the more important salient points. I submitted the detailed written statement, uh, for the record and won't go into a lot of that here. But, you know, the public has been told over and over since the late forties, there's nothing to worry about here. Uh, these mysterious crafts seen by millions of people in the skies, in the oceans, over the land, uh are not real. They're not a threat. The witnesses are wrong, they're crackpots. Don't believe it. That changed for me, what got me hooked is the paper trail. Documents that were squeezed out of the US government after the FOIA freedom of information Act became the law of the land. And those documents paint a much different picture than what the public, the press, and Congress have been told over many years. Uh, the documents from military and intelligence personnel behind closed doors admit that quote, these things are real. They're not fictitious. They can fly in formation, they're evasive, and they outperform any aircraft known to exist, including ours. The public, of course, as I said, has been told something much different. You know, back in 1989, I reported about a guy named Bob Lazar, who claimed that he worked at a facility dubbed S4 out in the Nevada desert, very near to Area 51. He said he was part of a reverse engineering program. He said there are alien crafts there were being taken apart to figure out how they operated out there. And that was a pretty tall order. I'd clearly taken a dive into the deep end of the pool there. But in the years since then, I've interviewed dozens of other people, and I've detailed what their testimony has been in the written statement. They include Senator Harry Reid, Senator Howard Cannon, also of Nevada, uh, a guy named Al O'Donnell, who was the first general manager of EGG in Nevada, which managed the Nevada test site, which blew up hundreds of nuclear weapons. Uh, there's a guy named Dr. James Lasky, who was a career scientist with the Defense Intelligence Agency who was the guy who initiated a program called AASAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application program, which is as far as we know, the largest acknowledged UFO program ever funded by the US government, which put together an amazing pile of information that members of this committee and the world, most of which they've have never seen, the DIA still hasn't released 95% of what was, uh, prepared by that program at a cost of millions and millions of dollars. The one name I do want to bring up in this section session though is Robert Bilow. So, looking into the idea of crash retrievals and reverse engineering, while AASAP, that program was active, the DIA's contractor, Robert Bilow of Las Vegas, made a bold attempt to acquire physical proof of UFO crashes. It's been widely reported and suspected that Lockheed Martin is one of the contractors, the defense contractors that has held this stuff, stashed it away in secrecy and tried to figure out how it works. I have confirmed on the record that Robert Bilow and a trusted colleague from AASAP met with and negotiated with senior executives at Lockheed Martin and hammered out a deal wherein Bilow's company bass would receive a quantity of unusual material that had been stashed away and protected at a facility in California. That material was not made here. I want to move on now to the Russia files because that was going to be sort of the central, uh, impetus of what I was going to talk to you about today. Back in the early nineties, I got into Russia, met with a number of their defense officials, Ministry of Defense and others who confirmed for me that Russia had been doing the same thing that the United States had been doing. That is secretly studying UFOs while publicly saying something completely different. The documents and interviews that I obtained and I've now shared with this task force, uh, show that the USSR launched what is almost certainly the largest UFO UAP investigation in the world. Uh, the first phase of that was an order was sent out to the entire USSR military empire that every unit, you see anything strange in the sky, a craft, an orb, something unusual, you had to gather all the evidence, collect testimony from the witnesses, look for physical evidence, and all of that information went into one program at the Ministry of Defense. Thousands and thousands of these reports came in. Uh, a lot of them were first routed to the KGB, but then back to another program that came after this collection effort called Thread three. And Thread three was an analysis program. We've provided to the committee the documents of what they were trying to do. And essentially, they were trying to build their own UFOs. They were using the information from their observations and studies to try to figure out the technology because the guy who was in charge of that program, Colonel Boris Sokolov told me that their goal was to basically develop technology that would be superior to anything we had based on what they learned from UFOs.
Anna Paulina Luna
Mr. Knapp, um, just, uh, in the name of time, to my understanding, did you have anything that you wanted to submit for Congress to see in this committee?
George Knapp
I have submitted those documents. There's
Anna Paulina Luna
Would you like to play any videos? Do you have a video that you would like to play?
George Knapp
I don't think it's for me to play.
Speaker
No, that was that was for Alexander. Alexander's
George Knapp
Alexander's video.
Anna Paulina Luna
Okay.
George Knapp
You could play it. He could narrate it.
Anna Paulina Luna
Okay, we can, um, in in the name of showing that video to everyone on the task force, we'd like to play that video at this time.
George Knapp
Sure.
Unknown
Sound.
Unknown
That shit took off earlier.
Anna Paulina Luna
If we can get rid of the audio real quick, Um, Mr. Wiggins and Mr. Nap, we'll get back to what that video was in a moment, but we just want to make sure that it was entered into the record as well as all the documents. Those will be able to be publicly found for everyone in the country to view. Um, if we could, Mr. Nap, we'll continue on the line of questioning, but I'm going to move on to Mr. Borland's opening statement.
Dylan Borland
Good morning, members of the Task Force and the committee. I would like to express my gratitude for being invited to testify to the current task force created under the People's chamber and the American public. As an American citizen, veteran, and intelligence community professional, it is an honor and a privilege to serve under oath before you on behalf of our country. I speak for myself and no former agency or company I have been previously affiliated with. My name is Dylan Borland, a former one and one geospatial intelligence specialist for the United States Air Force and an active duty enlisted capacity from 2010 to 2013. I've also been employed with BAE Systems and Intrepid Solutions as a senior analyst expert in analyzing video radar and advanced electro-optical imagery for official identification of aerial order of battle as well as naval and ground order of battle. I am a federal whistleblower having testified to both the ICG and Arrow with direct firsthand knowledge of and experience with craft and technologies that are not ours and are reportedly operating without congressional oversight. Because of my direct knowledge of the reality of certain legacy UAP programs, my professional career was deliberately obstructed and I have endured endured sustained reprisals from government agencies for over a decade. From 2011 to 2013, I was stationed at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia conducting 24-hour operations via manned and unmanned aerial vehicles for special operations forces in the global war on terror. During the summer of 2012, my team was on standby for weather, and I returned to my barracks on base and at approximately 0130, I saw an approximately 100 foot equilateral triangle takeoff from near the NASA Hanger on the base. The craft interfered with my telephone, did not have any sound, and the material it was made of appeared fluid or dynamic. I was under this triangular craft for a few minutes, and then it rapidly ascended to commercial jet level in seconds, displaying zero kinetic disturbance, sound or wind displacement. Some years after that experience, I was further exposed to classified information from the UAP legacy crash retrieval programs through a sensitive position I held within a special access program. During this time, intelligence officers approached me in fear for their own careers, citing misconduct within these programs and similar retaliation that I was already enduring at this time. These issues include medical malpractice committed by Veterans Affairs staff, denial of work I performed while enlisted in the United States Air Force, forge and manipulated employment documents, workplace harassment including colleagues being directed to not speak with me, manipulation of my security clearance by certain agencies, blocking, delaying and ultimately removing my ability to be employed within the IC. The retaliation I face and the retaliation against individuals I know who worked in these programs is what convinced me in March 2023 to become a whistleblower. I came forward out of concern for people's lives and to ensure I did everything I could to let our elected representatives know the truth about what is really happening in the executive branch. At the end of March 2023, I agreed to meet with Arrow following the suggestion of other federal officials believing it was what our nation required of me. I had reservations with Arrow due to assessments they were reporting publicly at the time as a misrepresentation of the truth. Because of these concerns, I did not share sources and methods information in order to protect current and formal federal personnel who had firsthand exposure to technologies of unknown origin. I did not want anyone to face further retaliation beyond what they had already endured, and unfortunately, a staff member ended up, uh, getting in some trouble because of that. After David Grush testified under oath in the summer of 2023 and provided historic disclosure, I was then asked to go to the ICIG and did so in August 2023. It was very clear early on during my intake interview, which was video recorded under oath that the objective was to solely assess how much I know and not move forward with an investigation with new information I provided them. The aftermath of that IG complaint still troubles me to this day. Since my ICG complaint, I have been prevented from resuming prior employment and can confirm I am still blacklisted from certain agencies within the intelligence community. In addition, multiple agencies attempted fishing attacks to assess what I had divulged to the inspector general, including being asked to disclose details of my ICG complaint during a CI polygraph for a position unrelated to UFO UAP matters as recently as November 2024. As I sit before you today, I and many other whistleblowers have no job prospects, no foreseeable professional future and a nation every single one of us came forward to defend. Numerous individuals have come forward in various ways to reveal the truth of the UAP reality as patriots and defenders of our nation. Yet many feel discarded, isolated, hopeless, separated from the country they serve. Efforts to rectify this situation for all whistleblowers have been difficult and troubling. and to my fellow whistleblowers and officials who know this information, I offer you my apology. Something that I have never gotten and I'm giving it to you. I swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States, an oath that demands truth and transparency for our democratic republic to function. Each day these truths remain hidden from our citizens, humanity drifts further from the principles our nation was founded to uphold. Each day victims of crimes committed by agencies and companies maintaining this secrecy are denied justice is another day our constitution is shredded. In 2023, Patriots provided this committee and the executive branch with undeniable proof of the UAP reality, and I commend your continued commitment. The future of humanity is one which we either travel to the stars or aggress to the Stone Age with this technology. My career has been to deliver critical information to decision makers. Your role as elected by your representatives is to act on it. The time to act is now. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Borland. We thank you for your service to our country and we appreciate you and we're we are sorry about how you've been treated and we will make sure that we try to rectify that situation. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Spielberger, please your opening remarks.
Joe Spielberger
Chairwoman Luna, ranking member Crockett and task force members, thank you for the opportunity to testify here today about the importance of strengthening whistleblower protections, especially in the context of national security. I'm a senior policy council at the project on government oversight, a non-partisan independent watchdog organization that investigates and exposes waste, corruption, abuse of power, and when the government fails to serve the public or silences those who report wrongdoing. Whistleblowers are the first line of defense to root out waste fraud, abuse of power and corruption in our government. Congress relies on whistleblowers so that it can fully exercise its oversight and legislative authorities. It's understandable that former presidents of both parties have often taken a hostile approach toward whistleblowers. Their disclosures can embarrass the president and their political party or even lead to a national scandal. But whistleblowers continue to play a vital role during both democratic and Republican administrations. They help Congress and the public identify and understand what government corruption looks like. Their disclosures fuel investigations and allow us to address wrongdoing and hold those responsible to account. That's why historically there's been a strong bipartisan consensus in Congress to support and protect whistleblowers. Doing so protects the country and ensures our government is more responsive and accountable to the people. National Security whistleblowing in particular is a tradition going back to the founding of our country, and over time, national security whistleblowers and their disclosures have impacted some of the most fundamental issues and questions about how we wish to be governed and how our government can better serve its people. From the role the US plays around the world to holding powerful actors accountable, government ethics and transparency, human rights and civil liberties, executive branch authority, first Amendment freedoms of speech and descent, freedom of the press and the public's interest and right to know. Despite this invaluable public service, blowing the whistle comes at great personal risk. Whistleblowers risk losing their jobs, careers, livelihoods and reputations. They can face retaliatory investigations, lawsuits and even serious criminal charges, and they can endure deep mental, emotional and psychological harm. All of that risk to speak the truth, to ensure that agencies fulfill their core missions and that they serve the best interests of the people. Those who retaliate against whistleblowers don't just violate their legal rights, they inflict real harm on our government and betray the public's trust. Targeting whistleblowers instead of the corruption they expose wastes agency resources and further allows that corruption to continue unaddressed. It can instill a chilling effect across an agency, fostering a climate of fear and distrust, quieting dissent and free speech, and deterring potential whistleblowers from coming forward in the future. Whistleblowers are often some of the most dedicated and principled public servants we have because of their willingness to put themselves on the line to do what's right. And Congress has historically supported them, again on a bipartisan basis. But unfortunately, whistleblowing has increasingly become more politicized with support for whistleblowers often hinging on which party is in power and which party is politically inconvenienced by the misconduct being exposed. But to be clear, targeting whistleblowers individually risks undermining whistleblowing period. Pogo advises members of Congress on both sides of the aisle to focus on the evidence, not the individual. We will always need whistleblowers to achieve the government that best serves its people because when people of conscience, integrity and good character refuse to speak up out of fear, complacency or self-preservation and leave corruption to fester behind closed doors, that is probably the most dangerous risk of all. If we are serious about increasing government transparency and restoring the public's trust, we need public servants committed to the truth. Whistleblowers need safe and effective channels to make lawful disclosures. They need stronger protections against retaliation, and when they do face retaliation, they need a fair shot to be made whole. Congress has made strides to pass whistleblower legislation and these laws need to be updated and expanded so that whistleblowers truly receive the protections they need, retaliators are held accountable, and we can achieve the type of government the people deserve. We strongly urge Congress to continue its historic tradition of championing the rights and protections of all whistleblowers. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify here this morning. Pogo is committed to working with you and the oversight committee to address these critical issues. I look forward to any questions. Thank you, sir, very much. Additionally, without objection, the Thank you. Additionally, without objection, the following members are waved onto the task force for the purpose of questioning witnesses at today's hearing. Representative Perry of Pennsylvania and Representative Rothman of Wisconsin. Sorry, what is the What? Oh, Representative Bicks from Arizona. I already, I already got you, but yeah, we're good. Without objection, so ordered. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. Um, also, um, as my friend Mr. Moscowitz might have to go, would you like to go now? Okay. All right. Mr. Borland, in your testimony, you describe witnessing a large triangular craft while stationed at Langley Air Force Base in 2012. Can you explain what you observed in terms of size, behavior, and why you're confident it was not conventional technology?
Dylan Borland
Great question, ma'am. Um, so on barracks, on the base, I lived in the barracks. There was a little smoke pit outside. I was there, uh, on the telephone and looking across to the flight line and I see a white light pop up and stop about 100 feet in the air. I thought it was a weather balloon. I've seen tests from there before, uh, week night, you know, normal thing, not surprising. I, uh, actually finished my cigarette and I began walking up towards the flight line. There is a track and because I was on three months of night work, I began, I would walk the track at night when we were weather down. And as I began walking towards the light, towards the flight line in the track, the light then flies across the base, across the flight line, and as it flies to me, a triangle manifests around the light. I can't tell you if it was active camouflage, I can't tell you if it appeared around the light, but I can tell you that it was a white light, and then it was a triangle. It stopped about 100 feet in front of me and approximately 100 feet above me. My telephone got extremely hot, completely froze, dead. Um, I remember how thick it was. It was between one to two stories thick, equilateral triangle. I could never see the top of it and the edges were 90 degree 90 degrees. There were four lights in total, uh, one light on each corner and a larger light in the center, two to three times the size of the corner lights. But what was really odd was the outside, the best way to describe it is like looking at a James Webb Telescope picture where you have the colors and then the black background. So the craft itself was this black metallic flight paint, but on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma, some type of fluid going over and around the craft. I'm under this for about two to three minutes, um, and then the center light flashes two to three times, no sound, immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum, in my opinion. Um, and I immediately feel static electricity all over my body, and then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or a lightning storm, that that really strong summer thunderstorm smell. Gets up to flight level. Um I'm trying to get my phone reset, and the entire thing was about from the time I saw the light pop up near the hanger until it took off out over the ocean was about 15 minutes.
Anna Paulina Luna
Um, in following up to that question, after you disclose this information to the intelligence community Inspector General, you're subject to fishing attempts and job blacklisting. How wide spread do you think this is across the intelligence community for those who raise concerns regarding UAP programs?
Dylan Borland
Uh, it's a difficult question to answer. I think prior to David Grush and people beginning this process of bringing people into awareness of the reality of these programs and certain things people have witnessed, uh, probably extremely widespread. I think today there's still an issue, but because people are able to come before you and people are speaking out, I think it has been somewhat less. I would hope though that people would because if this goes back into closed doors, this is going to get really ugly.
Anna Paulina Luna
What type of behavior have you witnessed from former Aero director Sean Kilpatrick as well as his staff in relation to this information you provided to them. Um, did they ever try to classify this information as non-human technology?
Dylan Borland
Uh, good question. The problem with this is is that I know what I experienced firsthand and I know other things. Um, I think the staff at Arrow that I met with in March of 2023, I think they were good people doing the job they were told to do. I did not meet with Kurt Patrick. Um, he was either not present or did not want to meet me that day. Um, however, they did classify information about the reality of this subject, um, and it was very concerning because in my Arrow MFR, they had actually referenced a former staff member, uh, that was the one who told me to go there and they, uh, probably shouldn't have done that.
Anna Paulina Luna
And, uh, real quick before my time is up and we might go to a second round of questioning just so you're all aware. Um, how important given everything that you've seen and experienced is the UAP disclosure Act of 2025 in restoring both public accountability and trust?
Dylan Borland
I think very important. Um, I would hope though that the seven-year window could be shrunk, my opinion, but very important that the truth needs to be known.
Anna Paulina Luna
Thank you very much. I now recognize Jared Moskowitz from Florida.
Jared Moskowitz
Uh, thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you for allowing me, uh, to to wave on to, uh, the committee. I I remember, you know, the last committee when we had a bunch of former military personnel folks that either served on bases, were pilots, or were in different programs experiencing knowledge. It it made me recognize that the narrative has changed, right? It it it's politically convenient for the government if you all weren't military folks and suits, it would be much better if you pulled up in Winnebagoes and were wearing hats. And so the picture of this, because it's important for the American people on how you tell a story, what the message looks like and who the messenger is. So this is now the the second or third committee where we have former military folks with impeccable records, with information and knowledge. And it's definitely clear on a bipartisan basis that we have to protect our whistleblowers. There's no doubt. And and in a day in which it's really hard to tell what's true or not from a political standpoint, um, and so I don't really know what is true. I don't know on this subject, but I do know when we're being lied to and we are definitely being lied to. There's just no doubt about that. Mr. Wiggins, I I want to talk to you. I find, um, your background and testimony compelling. When you first saw what you were looking at, what you were looking at, I what were your first thoughts?
Alexandro Wiggins
My first thoughts were, um, I think everything that I was told and taught as a kid and as a growing, growing adult, no longer uh, you know, was applicable if I'm able to see something that I thought defies gravity in such a way, then what else could be possible? That's what, that was my first thought.
Jared Moskowitz
So did you, did you think what you were looking at was a weapons program that you were unaware of, or did you think what you were looking at was obviously some extraterrestrial piece of technology?
Alexandro Wiggins
I I didn't, I neither one of those crossed my mind. It was just in the moment.
Jared Moskowitz
How about how about now? What do you think it is now?
Alexandro Wiggins
I'm I'm not the expert. Uh, I I think it, uh, I want to be as skeptical as everyone else and just hope to know the information.
Jared Moskowitz
Anyone in the US government tell you what you were looking at to try to dissuade you from what you thought it was?
Alexandro Wiggins
No.
Jared Moskowitz
So no one was like, oh, you know, there was some anomaly with the technology. No no one from the government did that?
Alexandro Wiggins
No one.
Jared Moskowitz
How do you think you were treated when you reported this information or have talked about, you know, the the Tic Tac video is is well out there. It's well reported. How how were you treated?
Alexandro Wiggins
I've I've had no pushback at all. Uh, I have have haven't had anyone reach out to me or or try to, you know, dissuade me in either direction, uh, militarily speaking. So, I was treated fair and I appreciate the Navy itself with, uh, assisting me with coming here to being able to testify.
Jared Moskowitz
That's good. So what, what do you think the American people should take away from watching your video? Right? Because when we watch it, obviously, right, we've never seen anything like that. It defies what we know to be technologically possible. What are we supposed to think? Someone's lying about something. Someone's hiding something, right? That's not normal what you looked at.
Alexandro Wiggins
I think what the American people should think when seeing that video, uh, along with others before me, is that, uh, there is something out there and we should know as the people what it is.
Jared Moskowitz
Right. And so let's eliminate possibilities. So they didn't come to you and say there was a technological error with what you were looking at. So we that we put that aside, right? They didn't say it was broken. So we look at that and we see something. So it's either a weapons program being reverse engineered by our government or other governments, or it's nobody's government and it's not from here. Those, those are it. You agree with that assessment?
Alexandro Wiggins
I agree. One of the other.
Jared Moskowitz
Mr. Borland, when, when you first experienced what you were looking at, um, and you, what, what did you do next? Like, what was your next step after what you saw?
Dylan Borland
Uh, I actually kind of laughed to myself and said, okay, so this exists as well. Um, worked in enough programs, been exposed to enough that I was like, okay, so this is a real thing. Um, I went back, walked the track, talked with a couple of my friends about it. Um, I did talk with some of my coworkers, one in particular, which I thought was a joke and it definitely wasn't, was like, you probably should never say this to anybody. Uh, and then what happened to me happened. So.
Nancy Mace
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today. Uh, Mr. Borland, I'd like to start with you and ask a few questions. Um, were there any other witnesses when you saw the equilateral triangle? Were there other witnesses that saw the same thing?
Dylan Borland
Not to my knowledge, ma'am. Um, at that point, the only people that would be awake is us, those of us that were doing operations for the GWT and then security forces. So not to my knowledge.
Nancy Mace
Um, and do you think that, in your opinion, that the equilateral triangle was the US government's technology?
Dylan Borland
I did once upon a time, but knowing what I know now, um, I'll have to answer that question in a skiff probably.
Nancy Mace
I was well, my next question is, you you teased us. So knowing what you know now means what?
Dylan Borland
I know enough to know that if you want an answer to that question, go to Arrow. They have the answer.
Nancy Mace
Do you think it was a foreign government?
Dylan Borland
I do not. No.
Nancy Mace
And Arrow is supposed to be disclosing. The last time I was in a skiff with Arrow, they said they were going to be doing disclosures. Uh, have they been doing much of that?
Dylan Borland
I don't have an answer to you for you. Um, I'm I don't know. I know what Arrow reports publicly and I know what I've been through.
Nancy Mace
Yeah. Um, and some of this stuff can be, I think, uh, debunked, right? There are sometimes there are weather balloons that look kind of little funky or drones or whatever, depending on the angle, direction, speed, etcetera. Um, are you scared for your safety?
Dylan Borland
Um, that's a complicated question. Uh, so being here today, um, if I say the wrong word, technically I can be charged with espionage. Espionage is a death penalty. Whistleblowers have faced it, John Kiriku for example. I am not scared for my physical safety in the sense of a agency or company coming to kill me, but uh, I have no job. My career is has been tarnished. You know, I'm unemployed, living off of unemployment for the next three, four weeks until that's gone. So it's a complicated question.
Nancy Mace
And there've been stories leaked about your life to try to discredit you in the public eye.
Dylan Borland
As of now, I don't know. I I've no
Nancy Mace
We know they did that to Mr. Grush.
Dylan Borland
I am aware. Yes, ma'am.
Nancy Mace
They leaked his medical private medical information, horrific things.
Dylan Borland
It it is.
Nancy Mace
Um, okay, you said in your testimony earlier with the chairwoman, you know other things. Um, I guess that has to be mentioned in a skiff.
Dylan Borland
It would.
Nancy Mace
The other things.
Dylan Borland
It would pending I'm even legally allowed to speak on it and the people in the room are even legally allowed to hear it.
Nancy Mace
Um, and is that, would we need to know the like the the compartmentalized word, like what the code word is or the name of the program, the special access program in order to even hear it. You have to know the the word, right?
Dylan Borland
I would suggest the name of it, right?
Dylan Borland
I would suggest that to be asked to DNI Gabert, um, and work with her for that because I can't give you the answer on what is the requirement.
Nancy Mace
This is what the US government does, right? They compartmentalize the information only certain people know the the name of the program and if you don't know it, you can't get the information. and if you don't have the name, you don't know what to ask for.
Nancy Mace
Even when we're reviewing the budget, we go into a skiff, we look at DD budget and the the budget of like black box programs and we don't know what we're looking at because we don't know what these programs are. Is it a way for the government to hide from Congress what's really going on and where their money's going?
Dylan Borland
In my opinion, absolutely yes.
Nancy Mace
Um, okay, thank you so much for your time today, which we had more time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Tim Burchett
Thank you, chair lady, and thank you, um, ranking member Crockett. Um, I see a lot of friends out there and I see a couple of enemies, so I'll kind of remember that. Um, but it's a pleasure being here. I want to remind people too, this thing is an ongoing deal. We're not going to get to this overnight. We've been fighting this battle, some of y'all for 30 years and maybe longer. I I hope we um just keep focused on the on what we're trying to get to is total disclosure. We get a little wrapped up in a lot of things, but the government has something and and they need to turn it over to us. We pay their dadgum salary. You pay our salary and you ought to get more out of us than you do. And that's what disgust me about this whole thing. I think they're just trying to run the clock out on us, really. They they'll poke us a little, they'll make jokes to us and try to pull us off the off the target, but I think we know where we're at and that's why they're firing at us because we are over the target. My first question is Mr. Knapp, um, I recently introduced the UAP whistleblower protection Act to help provide whistleblower protection to federal personnel for disclosing the use of federal taxpayer funds to investigate UFOs. I still don't want to say UAPs. Um, how can Congress further increase whistleblower protections?
George Knapp
I think you've got to unleash the dogs and go track down the money and where it goes because a lot of this stuff has been moved out of government. As you know, Bertchet, uh, it's been given to private contractors who stash it away. They've had it for so long that there's nobody left inside government or very few who know what where it is and And they do that to keep us from FOIA, correct?
Tim Burchett
Yeah. It's to keep it from FOIA and uh and I think that the contractors who have had this stuff for very long time set their own standards about who is allowed to know what and it's a very small group that ever cracks that.
George Knapp
I I worry about the people that are looking at it and don't even know what they're looking at. I mean, it's gone through so many I mean, since since Roswell for instance, I mean, you think there's nobody even alive that was around any of that stuff. So.
Tim Burchett
Yeah, I don't think they've made much progress from the people that I've talked to. I don't think they've made much progress in learning that technology, might have made some, but you wonder, you know, the implication is tic Tac. Oh yeah, that's ours. What what flew over Washington DC in 52, is that ours too? When are they going to break that out? You guys authorize tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars on weapon systems that can't do half of what we've seen UF UFOs do. So when do when do they break this out if it's if it's really a uh a classified project could change the world. I don't think they've made much progress and I think they've been lying to us and to you and the rest of the world and they're still doing it.
Tim Burchett
Yes, sir. I agree with you. Um, how did you manage to obtain the classified Russian UAP documents? and how did you get them back in the United States?
George Knapp
Uh, well, I I met this Russian physicist who was in the United States uh lecturing and I want to clarify that. I can't even take a um a thing of honey home on my airplane when I fly back to Tennessee. So.
Tim Burchett
I did something pretty dumb and And I'm bitter about it, but go ahead.
George Knapp
I I did something kind of dumb. I I met with these officials who, you know, during that time period, Glasnosca, the Russians were trying to open up to the world and I saw it as a window of opportunity and it was. and we were able to talk these folks into providing us information, um, that otherwise we would never have seen. Some of that was classified. What I found out that they they only stamped the top pages of these documents that were classified. So I just removed them. I removed those pages and I I carried them out and if they'd caught me, I'd be in a gulag still.
Tim Burchett
Yeah. We'd be saying, what happened to George Napp? Oh yeah. What happened to the Russians that came forward to you in 1993 and were there any repercussions for them?
George Knapp
Well, there were. The first thing that happened when I talked about this after getting back and and going through the files and things and sifting through it, um, the Russian uh physicist who had helped us uh be introduced all these people, wrote back and said there was a huge eruption that there was uh the the real right or far uh autocratic forces who wanted a return of the USSR had really go after these guys. They described him as traitors. Nicolai Caprioff, the physicist friend of mine, said, look, if this had happened five years earlier, we would be in prison. If it happened 10 years earlier, we would have been shot. Luckily at that point, Putin was not in power, but none of those people that we talked to on that trip in 1993 would ever talk to me again. I went back in 1996 and it was like I had the plague. I spoke to different people, but they were scared. And eventually the the story was spun where the Ministry of Defense officials who gave us this information, uh, were described as ufologists who said there was nothing really significant in these files. They didn't really find anything of a big deal. and I can tell you, you'll see those files that I've shared with you, they did find stuff. There was an incident in October of 1982 over an ICBM base where UFOs popped up, was observed over this base where the missiles are pointed at us, the United States. These UFOs perform incredible maneuvers. They split apart, they fuse back together. They'd appear and disappear and right at the end of this four-hour period, the launch control codes for the ICBMs lit up. Something entered the correct codes. The missiles were fired up and ready to launch and they could not shut it down. The Russian officers were panicking. The UFOs go they they disappeared, the launch control system goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov and his team came in, took the thing apart, could not figure out what it was. It wasn't a power surge or EMPs or some of the baloney excuses that our country has given for similar events involving our nuclear missiles. Uh, they thought it was a message from wherever the UFOs were from and that's a chilling thing. I mean, that was we were a couple of seconds away from World War III starting and the UFOs were responsible for it.
Tim Burchett
All right. I'm out of time, but real quick. Who are the contractors that have this material? The corporations.
George Knapp
Well, one of them's Lockheed, and I'll tell you, I mean, you know, I'm not saying Lockheed's the bad guys. They're doing what they were asked to do. They've lied about this because that's what they're supposed to do. But Lockheed would be one. There's a list I can give you and Congressman, um, some of the big ones, the the usual suspects.
Tim Burchett
Okay. Thank you. Yield back, chair lady. Sorry for going over.
Anna Paulina Luna
It's all good.
Tim Burchett
It's all George Nap's fault.
Anna Paulina Luna
I I now recognize, uh, recognize Mr. Burchet from Tennessee for five minutes.
Tim Burchett
Thank you, chair lady, and thank you, um, ranking member Crockett. Um, I see a lot of friends out there and I see a couple of enemies, so I'll kind of remember that. Um, but it's a pleasure being here. I want to remind people too, this thing is an ongoing deal. We're not going to get to this overnight. We've been fighting this battle, some of y'all for 30 years and maybe longer. I I hope we um just keep focused on the on what we're trying to get to is total disclosure. We get a little wrapped up in a lot of things, but the government has something and and they need to turn it over to us. We pay their dadgum salary. You pay our salary and you ought to get more out of us than you do. And that's what disgust me about this whole thing. I think they're just trying to run the clock out on us, really. They they'll poke us a little, they'll make jokes to us and try to pull us off the off the target, but I think we know where we're at and that's why they're firing at us because we are over the target. My first question is Mr. Napp, um, I recently introduced the UAP whistleblower protection Act to help provide whistleblower protection to federal personnel for disclosing the use of federal taxpayer funds to investigate UFOs. I still don't want to say UAPs. Um, how can Congress further increase whistleblower protections?
George Knapp
I think you've got to unleash the dogs and go track down the money and where it goes because a lot of this stuff has been moved out of government. As you know, Bertchet, uh, it's been given to private contractors who stash it away. They've had it for so long that there's nobody left inside government or very few who know what where it is and And they do that to keep us from FOIA, correct?
Tim Burchett
Yeah. It's to keep it from FOIA and uh and I think that the contractors who have had this stuff for very long time set their own standards about who is allowed to know what and it's a very small group that ever cracks that.
George Knapp
I I worry about the people that are looking at it and don't even know what they're looking at. I mean, it's gone through so many I mean, since since Roswell for instance, I mean, you think there's nobody even alive that was around any of that stuff. So.
Tim Burchett
Yeah, I don't think they've made much progress from the people that I've talked to. I don't think they've made much progress in learning that technology, might have made some, but you wonder, you know, the implication is tic Tac. Oh yeah, that's ours. What what flew over Washington DC in 52, is that ours too? When are they going to break that out? You guys authorize tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars on weapon systems that can't do half of what we've seen UF UFOs do. So when do when do they break this out if it's if it's really a uh a classified project could change the world. I don't think they've made much progress and I think they've been lying to us and to you and the rest of the world and they're still doing it.
Tim Burchett
Yes, sir. I agree with you. Um, how did you manage to obtain the classified Russian UAP documents? and how did you get them back in the United States?
George Knapp
Uh, well, I I met this Russian physicist who was in the United States uh lecturing and I want to clarify that. I can't even take a um a thing of honey home on my airplane when I fly back to Tennessee. So.
Tim Burchett
I did something pretty dumb and And I'm bitter about it, but go ahead.
George Knapp
I I did something kind of dumb. I I met with these officials who, you know, during that time period, Glasnosca, the Russians were trying to open up to the world and I saw it as a window of opportunity and it was. and we were able to talk these folks into providing us information, um, that otherwise we would never have seen. Some of that was classified. What I found out that they they only stamped the top pages of these documents that were classified. So I just removed them. I removed those pages and I I carried them out and if they'd caught me, I'd be in a gulag still.
Tim Burchett
Yeah. We'd be saying, what happened to George Napp? Oh yeah. What happened to the Russians that came forward to you in 1993 and were there any repercussions for them?
George Knapp
Well, there were. The first thing that happened when I talked about this after getting back and and going through the files and things and sifting through it, um, the Russian uh physicist who had helped us uh be introduced all these people, wrote back and said there was a huge eruption that there was uh the the real right or far uh autocratic forces who wanted a return of the USSR had really go after these guys. They described him as traitors. Nicolai Caprioff, the physicist friend of mine, said, look, if this had happened five years earlier, we would be in prison. If it happened 10 years earlier, we would have been shot. Luckily at that point, Putin was not in power, but none of those people that we talked to on that trip in 1993 would ever talk to me again. I went back in 1996 and it was like I had the plague. I spoke to different people, but they were scared. And eventually the the story was spun where the Ministry of Defense officials who gave us this information, uh, were described as ufologists who said there was nothing really significant in these files. They didn't really find anything of a big deal. and I can tell you, you'll see those files that I've shared with you, they did find stuff. There was an incident in October of 1982 over an ICBM base where UFOs popped up, was observed over this base where the missiles are pointed at us, the United States. These UFOs perform incredible maneuvers. They split apart, they fuse back together. They'd appear and disappear and right at the end of this four-hour period, the launch control codes for the ICBMs lit up. Something entered the correct codes. The missiles were fired up and ready to launch and they could not shut it down. The Russian officers were panicking. The UFOs go they they disappeared, the launch control system goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov and his team came in, took the thing apart, could not figure out what it was. It wasn't a power surge or EMPs or some of the baloney excuses that our country has given for similar events involving our nuclear missiles. Uh, they thought it was a message from wherever the UFOs were from and that's a chilling thing. I mean, that was we were a couple of seconds away from World War III starting and the UFOs were responsible for it.
Tim Burchett
All right. I'm out of time, but real quick. Who are the contractors that have this material? The corporations.
George Knapp
Well, one of them's Lockheed, and I'll tell you, I mean, you know, I'm not saying Lockheed's the bad guys. They're doing what they were asked to do. They've lied about this because that's what they're supposed to do. But Lockheed would be one. There's a list I can give you and Congressman, um, some of the big ones, the the usual suspects.
Tim Burchett
Okay. Thank you. Yield back, chair lady. Sorry for going over.
Anna Paulina Luna
It's all good.
Tim Burchett
It's all George Nap's fault.
Anna Paulina Luna
I now recognize, uh, recognize Mr. Burchet from Tennessee for five minutes.
Tim Burchett
Thank you, chair lady, and thank you, um, ranking member Crockett. Um, I see a lot of friends out there and I see a couple of enemies, so I'll kind of remember that. Um, but it's a pleasure being here. I want to remind people too, this thing is an ongoing deal. We're not going to get to this overnight. We've been fighting this battle, some of y'all for 30 years and maybe longer. I I hope we um just keep focused on the on what we're trying to get to is total disclosure. We get a little wrapped up in a lot of things, but the government has something and and they need to turn it over to us. We pay their dadgum salary. You pay our salary and you ought to get more out of us than you do. And that's what disgust me about this whole thing. I think they're just trying to run the clock out on us, really. They they'll poke us a little, they'll make jokes to us and try to pull us off the off the target, but I think we know where we're at and that's why they're firing at us because we are over the target. My first question is Mr. Napp, um, I recently introduced the UAP whistleblower protection Act to help provide whistleblower protection to federal personnel for disclosing the use of federal taxpayer funds to investigate UFOs. I still don't want to say UAPs. Um, how can Congress further increase whistleblower protections?
George Knapp
I think you've got to unleash the dogs and go track down the money and where it goes because a lot of this stuff has been moved out of government. As you know, Bertchet, uh, it's been given to private contractors who stash it away. They've had it for so long that there's nobody left inside government or very few who know what where it is and And they do that to keep us from FOIA, correct?
Tim Burchett
Yeah. It's to keep it from FOIA and uh and I think that the contractors who have had this stuff for very long time set their own standards about who is allowed to know what and it's a very small group that ever cracks that.
George Knapp
I I worry about the people that are looking at it and don't even know what they're looking at. I mean, it's gone through so many I mean, since since Roswell for instance, I mean, you think there's nobody even alive that was around any of that stuff. So.
Tim Burchett
Yeah, I don't think they've made much progress from the people that I've talked to. I don't think they've made much progress in learning that technology, might have made some, but you wonder, you know, the implication is tic Tac. Oh yeah, that's ours. What what flew over Washington DC in 52, is that ours too? When are they going to break that out? You guys authorize tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars on weapon systems that can't do half of what we've seen UF UFOs do. So when do when do they break this out if it's if it's really a uh a classified project could change the world. I don't think they've made much progress and I think they've been lying to us and to you and the rest of the world and they're still doing it.
Tim Burchett
Yes, sir. I agree with you. Um, how did you manage to obtain the classified Russian UAP documents? and how did you get them back in the United States?
George Knapp
Uh, well, I I met this Russian physicist who was in the United States uh lecturing and I want to clarify that. I can't even take a um a thing of honey home on my airplane when I fly back to Tennessee. So.
Tim Burchett
I did something pretty dumb and And I'm bitter about it, but go ahead.
George Knapp
I I did something kind of dumb. I I met with these officials who, you know, during that time period, Glasnosca, the Russians were trying to open up to the world and I saw it as a window of opportunity and it was. and we were able to talk these folks into providing us information, um, that otherwise we would never have seen. Some of that was classified. What I found out that they they only stamped the top pages of these documents that were classified. So I just removed them. I removed those pages and I I carried them out and if they'd caught me, I'd be in a gulag still.
Tim Burchett
Yeah. We'd be saying, what happened to George Napp? Oh yeah. What happened to the Russians that came forward to you in 1993 and were there any repercussions for them?
George Knapp
Well, there were. The first thing that happened when I talked about this after getting back and and going through the files and things and sifting through it, um, the Russian uh physicist who had helped us uh be introduced all these people, wrote back and said there was a huge eruption that there was uh the the real right or far uh autocratic forces who wanted a return of the USSR had really go after these guys. They described him as traitors. Nicolai Caprioff, the physicist friend of mine, said, look, if this had happened five years earlier, we would be in prison. If it happened 10 years earlier, we would have been shot. Luckily at that point, Putin was not in power, but none of those people that we talked to on that trip in 1993 would ever talk to me again. I went back in 1996 and it was like I had the plague. I spoke to different people, but they were scared. And eventually the the story was spun where the Ministry of Defense officials who gave us this information, uh, were described as ufologists who said there was nothing really significant in these files. They didn't really find anything of a big deal. and I can tell you, you'll see those files that I've shared with you, they did find stuff. There was an incident in October of 1982 over an ICBM base where UFOs popped up, was observed over this base where the missiles are pointed at us, the United States. These UFOs perform incredible maneuvers. They split apart, they fuse back together. They'd appear and disappear and right at the end of this four-hour period, the launch control codes for the ICBMs lit up. Something entered the correct codes. The missiles were fired up and ready to launch and they could not shut it down. The Russian officers were panicking. The UFOs go they they disappeared, the launch control system goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov and his team came in, took the thing apart, could not figure out what it was. It wasn't a power surge or EMPs or some of the baloney excuses that our country has given for similar events involving our nuclear missiles. Uh, they thought it was a message from wherever the UFOs were from and that's a chilling thing. I mean, that was we were a couple of seconds away from World War III starting and the UFOs were responsible for it.
Tim Burchett
All right. I'm out of time, but real quick. Who are the contractors that have this material? The corporations.
George Knapp
Well, one of them's Lockheed, and I'll tell you, I mean, you know, I'm not saying Lockheed's the bad guys. They're doing what they were asked to do. They've lied about this because that's what they're supposed to do. But Lockheed would be one. There's a list I can give you and Congressman, um, some of the big ones, the the usual suspects.
Tim Burchett
Okay. Thank you. Yield back, chair lady. Sorry for going over.
Anna Paulina Luna
It's all good.
Tim Burchett
It's all George Nap's fault.
Anna Paulina Luna
I now recognize, uh, recognize Mr. Burchet from Tennessee for five minutes.
Tim Burchett
It's what I should be. Number one in your heart, number 435 on the chart. That's me. Uh, Dylan, um, knowing you testified to Arrow, are they obfuscating when they claim to have discovered no evidence of extraterrestrial beings, activity or technology, and are they lying to the American public?
Dylan Borland
Uh, as I said before, it's it's a manipulation of the public perception. The statement scientific evidence of extraterrestrials is a true statement. It is not the truth about what is happening and what we have.
Tim Burchett
You like to comment on that further? Mr. Knapp? You're acting edgy.
George Knapp
Well, it's splitting hairs. No proof that they're extraterrestrials. What would that proof look like? Uh a piece of Kryptonite, what would it be? I mean, we could be talking about different forms of non-human intelligence. Uh, I think the dominant paradigm is that they come from outer space, somewhere else and they have some way that they can cross those vast distances that we can't even imagine doing. But not necessarily, that's not necessarily the answer. So asking for proof of extraterrestrials might not be the answer at all. It's splitting hair. Uh, you know, we don't know where they're from. I don't know anyone who knows the answer for sure. They call them aliens just as a placeholder kind of a word, but no one in all these programs who've studied this stuff for years, people with much bigger brains than mine knows the answer for sure.
Tim Burchett
I've talked to Navy folks that some of the deep sea areas, they think there might be something there that they're here. I don't know when they got here. Another point that needs to be made is every time, you know, we say we're going to back engineer or whatever you want to call it, um these crafts. I always say like, it'd be like if you took a, I ride motorcycles, but if you took like an Indian or a Harley to the people that came over here on the Mayflower, you know, they'd see a bright shiny object. They might polish it, you know, they might, they might get it started. I doubt they could. They couldn't, they couldn't work on it. They couldn't put fuel, they wouldn't be able to have the capability of putting fuel in it. I just think that that's, you know, we're just we're scratching at something that we don't have any knowledge of and that's why it's just taken so dadgum long, but they do know the first one that cracks that code. It's it's over. I mean, it's it's energy, it's power, it's everything. and I worry too that in the wrong hands, that they do that. Um, they keep it from the rest of us because they're so invested in whatever energy sources we have here, their billionaire buddies are going to profit and they can't and they can't retool because they know once it's out on the internet, it's over. And so I think there's a lot of things going after it and I think that's why the move to discredit folks is so rapid too. I think, you know, they're just, they point to them and they they put the dogs on them and it discussed me.
George Knapp
There's a price to be paid for that too. The Russians and Chinese are trying to figure this this out as well, but they're they don't have the same kind of stigma. They tell their best scientists and engineers, get in there and work on it. and they've been doing it for a very long time, might have a head start on us. Here, we don't have our best scientists and engineers working on it because they've been told it's nonsense. The stigma is very real for people like that.
Tim Burchett
I agree. You're back, Cher Lady.
Anna Paulina Luna
Thank you. I'd like to recognize Representative Burlson.
Eric Burlison
Thank you. Mr. Nuccetelli, you heard the testimony of Mr. Knapp talking about um that these missiles were shut down or turned on in Russia. Um, does that, does that remind you? When you hear these stories, it's got to remind you of the event that happened on your base.
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
Absolutely. There are many, many um accounts of incursions of this taking place. I believe in the sixties, we had a similar incursion in New England. And, uh, same thing happened. There were these objects coming over the base at low altitude, 200 feet over the base security police, and they were scrambling fighters and then the objects would just fly off and that went on for weeks. So the historical record has laid out that there's a pattern that our our installations are visited by these craft. You know, they they come in and do whatever they're doing and then they leave and we don't know how to respond, we don't know how to protect the installation. So that's why we're here.
Eric Burlison
When you first heard and and were having to report on the these incidents that were being witnessed by other individuals, did you, did you find, did you believe them? Did you yourself believe it would be true until you saw it?
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
These are people I've worked with for years, deployed with. Um, you know, I was in some of their weddings. These are people that I I worked with every day of my life. Uh, usually when the events were occurring, we were all together. You know, there'd be 40, 60, 100 people on duty during these encounters.
Eric Burlison
Really? All seeing it at the same time?
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
Yes, these were, these encounters were playing out while we were on duty. Um, and and we were responding and investigating in real time as they occurred.
Eric Burlison
And as you said, the importance of your operation was highly important because they said it's the most important in 25 years. Um that that the research that you were conducting.
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
For that particular launch, we had 500 Air Force Police officers guarding the launch. 500 people. It was that critical. But had this thing showed up, we wouldn't have been able to do anything to prevent it showing up.
Anna Paulina Luna
Really quickly, can you just redescribe size and whether or not you heard anything? It was how big wise?
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
The two square objects were at least as large as a football field. Um, the second encounter, they think it was much larger than a football field. We're talking like build flying buildings. The object I saw was about 30 feet in diameter.
Anna Paulina Luna
And to confirm you were not the only person that saw this.
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
Correct.
Anna Paulina Luna
I think I was also told, um, that there was also reports of this in a police blotter in the area. Can you confirm that?
Jeffrey Nuccetelli
Yes, that's the uh, the the documentation that I maintained from the original event and uh, turned into Arrow and the FBI.
Anna Paulina Luna
Okay. Do you have any more, Burlison?
Eric Burlison
No, I'm I'm just I want to commend you. You're the first witness to come forward that is currently serving and it's not and it's recognized. and so I thank you. and your testimony is unbelievable. Um, last Leslie, Mr. Borland, um, you know, when you engage with Arrow in 2023, you noted that their public statements did not match the reality that you and others had witnessed. In your assessment, what were the key limitations of Arrow?
Dylan Borland
You know, I would put it to you this way. The statement Arrow has made is scientific evidence of extraterrestrials. Scientific evidence requires the scientific control. Extraterrestrial is an entity on another planet. The only way to scientifically prove extraterrestrial is we have to go to that planet, acquire technology, bring it back and compare it to what we have here.
Eric Burlison
So you're saying they won't let anything out because they're, or they won't, they won't come forward unless they can confirm that it, it unless they go to the planet and confirm where its origin is.
Dylan Borland
That that would be scientific evidence. Yes. And by that statement, Arrow found no scientific evidence of extraterrestrials is basically, I don't want to call it a p, but a misrepresentation because we do have things, but making that statement is not technically a lie. It's a misrepresentation of the full truth.
Eric Burlison
Thank you.
Anna Paulina Luna
Without objection, so ordered. I now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. Um, also, um, as my friend Mr. Moscowitz might have to go, would you like to go now? Okay. All right. Mr. Borland, in your testimony, you described witnessing a large triangular craft while stationed at Langley Air Force Base in 2012. Can you explain what you observed in terms of size, behavior, and why you're confident it was not conventional technology?
Dylan Borland
Great question, ma'am. Um, so on barracks, on the base, I lived in the barracks. There was a little smoke pit outside. I was there, uh, on the telephone and looking across to the flight line and I see a white light pop up and stop about 100 feet in the air. I thought it was a weather balloon. I've seen tests from there before, uh, week night, you know, normal thing, not surprising. I, uh, actually finished my cigarette and I began walking up towards the flight line. There is a track and because I was on three months of night work, I began, I would walk the track at night when we were weather down. And as I began walking towards the light, towards the flight line in the track, the light then flies across the base, across the flight line, and as it flies to me, a triangle manifests around the light. I can't tell you if it was active camouflage, I can't tell you if it appeared around the light, but I can tell you that it was a white light, and then it was a triangle. It stopped about 100 feet in front of me and approximately 100 feet above me. My telephone got extremely hot, completely froze, dead. Um, I remember how thick it was. It was between one to two stories thick, equilateral triangle. I could never see the top of it and the edges were 90 degree 90 degrees. There were four lights in total, uh, one light on each corner and a larger light in the center, two to three times the size of the corner lights. But what was really odd was the outside, the best way to describe it is like looking at a James Webb Telescope picture where you have the colors and then the black background. So the craft itself was this black metallic flight paint, but on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma, some type of fluid going over and around the craft. I'm under this for about two to three minutes, um, and then the center light flashes two to three times, no sound, immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum, in my opinion. Um, and I immediately feel static electricity all over my body, and then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or a lightning storm, that that really strong summer thunderstorm smell. Gets up to flight level. Um I'm trying to get my phone reset, and the entire thing was about from the time I saw the light pop up near the hanger until it took off out over the ocean was about 15 minutes.
Anna Paulina Luna
Um, in following up to that question, after you disclose this information to the intelligence community Inspector General, you're subject to fishing attempts and job blacklisting. How wide spread do you think this is across the intelligence community for those who raise concerns regarding UAP programs?
Dylan Borland
Uh, it's a difficult question to answer. I think prior to David Grush and people beginning this process of bringing people into awareness of the reality of these programs and certain things people have witnessed, uh, probably extremely widespread. I think today there's still an issue, but because people are able to come before you and people are speaking out, I think it has been somewhat less. I would hope though that people would because if this goes back into closed doors, this is going to get really ugly.
Anna Paulina Luna
What type of behavior have you witnessed from former Aero director Sean Kilpatrick as well as his staff in relation to this information you provided to them. Um, did they ever try to classify this information as non-human technology?
Dylan Borland
Uh, good question. The problem with this is is that I know what I experienced firsthand and I know other things. Um, I think the staff at Arrow that I met with in March of 2023, I think they were good people doing the job they were told to do. I did not meet with Kurt Patrick. Um, he was either not present or did not want to meet me that day. Um, however, they did classify information about the reality of this subject, um, and it was very concerning because in my Arrow MFR, they had actually referenced a former staff member, uh, that was the one who told me to go there and they, uh, probably shouldn't have done that.
Anna Paulina Luna
And, uh, real quick before my time is up and we might go to a second round of questioning just so you're all aware. Um, how important given everything that you've seen and experienced is the UAP disclosure Act of 2025 in restoring both public accountability and trust?
Dylan Borland
I think very important. Um, I would hope though that the seven-year window could be shrunk, my opinion, but very important that the truth needs to be known.
Anna Paulina Luna
Thank you very much. I now recognize Jared Moskowitz from Florida.
Jared Moskowitz
Uh, thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you for allowing me, uh, to to wave on to, uh, the committee. I I remember, you know, the last committee when we had a bunch of former military personnel folks that either served on bases, were pilots, or were in different programs experiencing knowledge. It it made me recognize that the narrative has changed, right? It it it's politically convenient for the government if you all weren't military folks and suits, it would be much better if you pulled up in Winnebagoes and were wearing hats. And so the picture of this, because it's important for the American people on how you tell a story, what the message looks like and who the messenger is. So this is now the the second or third committee where we have former military folks with impeccable records, with information and knowledge. And it's definitely clear on a bipartisan basis that we have to protect our whistleblowers. There's no doubt. And and in a day in which it's really hard to tell what's true or not from a political standpoint, um, and so I don't really know what is true. I don't know on this subject, but I do know when we're being lied to and we are definitely being lied to. There's just no doubt about that. Mr. Wiggins, I I want to talk to you. I find, um, your background and testimony compelling. When you first saw what you were looking at, what you were looking at, I what were your first thoughts?
Alexandro Wiggins
My first thoughts were, um, I think everything that I was told and taught as a kid and as a growing, growing adult, no longer uh, you know, was applicable if I'm able to see something that I thought defies gravity in such a way, then what else could be possible? That's what, that was my first thought.
Jared Moskowitz
So did you, did you think what you were looking at was a weapons program that you were unaware of, or did you think what you were looking at was obviously some extraterrestrial piece of technology?
Alexandro Wiggins
I I didn't, I neither one of those crossed my mind. It was just in the moment.
Jared Moskowitz
How about how about now? What do you think it is now?
Alexandro Wiggins
I'm I'm not the expert. Uh, I I think it, uh, I want to be as skeptical as everyone else and just hope to know the information.
Jared Moskowitz
Anyone in the US government tell you what you were looking at to try to dissuade you from what you thought it was?
Alexandro Wiggins
No.
Jared Moskowitz
So no one was like, oh, you know, there was some anomaly with the technology. No no one from the government did that?
Alexandro Wiggins
No one.
Jared Moskowitz
How do you think you were treated when you reported this information or have talked about, you know, the the Tic Tac video is is well out there. It's well reported. How how were you treated?
Alexandro Wiggins
I've I've had no pushback at all. Uh, I have have haven't had anyone reach out to me or or try to, you know, dissuade me in either direction, uh, militarily speaking. So, I was treated fair and I appreciate the Navy itself with, uh, assisting me with coming here to being able to testify.
Jared Moskowitz
That's good. So what, what do you think the American people should take away from watching your video? Right? Because when we watch it, obviously, right, we've never seen anything like that. It defies what we know to be technologically possible. What are we supposed to think? Someone's lying about something. Someone's hiding something, right? That's not normal what you looked at.
Alexandro Wiggins
I think what the American people should think when seeing that video, uh, along with others before me, is that, uh, there is something out there and we should know as the people what it is.
Jared Moskowitz
Right. And so let's eliminate possibilities. So they didn't come to you and say there was a technological error with what you were looking at. So we that we put that aside, right? They didn't say it was broken. So we look at that and we see something. So it's either a weapons program being reverse engineered by our government or other governments, or it's nobody's government and it's not from here. Those, those are it. You agree with that assessment?
Alexandro Wiggins
I agree. One of the other.
Jared Moskowitz
Mr. Borland, when, when you first experienced what you were looking at, um, and you, what, what did you do next? Like, what was your next step after you what it had passed and you were done?
Dylan Borland
Uh, I actually kind of laughed to myself and said, okay, so this exists as well. Um, worked in enough programs, been exposed to enough that I was like, okay, so this is a real thing. Um, I went back, walked the track, talked with a couple of my friends about it. Um, I did talk with some of my coworkers, one in particular, which I thought was a joke and it definitely wasn't, was like, you probably should never say this to anybody. Uh, and then what happened to me happened. So.
Nancy Mace
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today. Uh, Mr. Borland, I'd like to start with you and ask a few questions. Um, were there any other witnesses when you saw the equilateral triangle? Were there other witnesses that saw the same thing?
Dylan Borland
Not to my knowledge, ma'am. Um, at that point, the only people that would be awake is us, those of us that were doing operations for the GWT and then security forces. So not to my knowledge.
Nancy Mace
Um, and do you think that, in your opinion, that the equilateral triangle was the US government's technology?
Dylan Borland
I did once upon a time, but knowing what I know now, um, I'll have to answer that question in a skiff probably.
Nancy Mace
I was well, my next question is, you you teased us. So knowing what you know now means what?
Dylan Borland
I know enough to know that if you want an answer to that question, go to Arrow. They have the answer.
Nancy Mace
Do you think it was a foreign government?
Dylan Borland
I do not. No.
Nancy Mace
And Arrow is supposed to be disclosing. The last time I was in a skiff with Arrow, they said they were going to be doing disclosures. Uh, have they been doing much of that?
Dylan Borland
I don't have an answer to you for you. Um, I'm I don't know. I know what Arrow reports publicly and I know what I've been through.
Nancy Mace
Yeah. Um, and some of this stuff can be, I think, uh, debunked, right? There are sometimes there are weather balloons that look kind of little funky or drones or whatever, depending on the angle, direction, speed, etcetera. Um, are you scared for your safety?
Dylan Borland
Um, that's a complicated question. Uh, so being here today, um, if I say the wrong word, technically I can be charged with espionage. Espionage is a death penalty. Whistleblowers have faced it, John Kiriku for example. I am not scared for my physical safety in the sense of a agency or company coming to kill me, but uh, I have no job. My career is has been tarnished. You know, I'm unemployed, living off of unemployment for the next three, four weeks until that's gone. So it's a complicated question.
Nancy Mace
And there've been stories leaked about your life to try to discredit you in the public eye.
Dylan Borland
As of now, I don't know. I I have no
Nancy Mace
We know they did that to Mr. Grush.
Dylan Borland
I am aware. Yes, ma'am.
Nancy Mace
They leaked his medical private medical information, horrific things.
Dylan Borland
It it is.
Nancy Mace
Um, okay, you said in your testimony earlier with the chairwoman, you know other things. Um, I guess that has to be mentioned in a skiff.
Dylan Borland
It would.
Nancy Mace
The other things.
Dylan Borland
It would pending I'm even legally allowed to speak on it and the people in the room are even legally allowed to hear it.
Nancy Mace
Um, and is that, would we need to know the like the the compartmentalized word, like what the code word is or the name of the program, the special access program in order to even hear it. You have to know the the word, right?
Dylan Borland
I would suggest the name of it, right?
Dylan Borland
I would suggest that to be asked to DNI Gabert, um, and work with her for that because I can't give you the answer on what is the requirement.
Nancy Mace
This is what the US government does, right? They compartmentalize the information only certain people know the the name of the program and if you don't know it, you can't get the information. and if you don't have the name, you don't know what to ask for.
Nancy Mace
Even when we're reviewing the budget, we go into a skiff, we look at DD budget and the the budget of like black box programs and we don't know what we're looking at because we don't know what these programs are. Is it a way for the government to hide from Congress what's really going on and where their money's going?
Dylan Borland
In my opinion, absolutely yes.
Nancy Mace
Um, okay, thank you so much for your time today, which we had more time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Tim Burchett
Thank you, chair lady, and thank you, um, ranking member Crockett. Um, I see a lot of friends out there and I see a couple of enemies, so I'll kind of remember that. Um, but it's a pleasure being here. I want to remind people too, this thing is an ongoing deal. We're not going to get to this overnight. We've been fighting this battle, some of y'all for 30 years and maybe longer. I I hope we um just keep focused on the on what we're trying to get to is total disclosure. We get a little wrapped up in a lot of things, but the government has something and and they need to turn it over to us. We pay their dadgum salary. You pay our salary and you ought to get more out of us than you do. And that's what disgust me about this whole thing. I think they're just trying to run the clock out on us, really. They they'll poke us a little, they'll make jokes to us and try to pull us off the off the target, but I think we know where we're at and that's why they're firing at us because we are over the target. My first question is Mr. Napp, um, I recently introduced the UAP whistleblower protection Act to help provide whistleblower protection to federal personnel for disclosing the use of federal taxpayer funds to investigate UFOs. I still don't want to say UAPs. Um, how can Congress further increase whistleblower protections?
George Knapp
I think you've got to unleash the dogs and go track down the money and where it goes because a lot of this stuff has been moved out of government. As you know, Bertchet, uh, it's been given to private contractors who stash it away. They've had it for so long that there's nobody left inside government or very few who know what where it is and And they do that to keep us from FOIA, correct?
Tim Burchett
Yeah. It's to keep it from FOIA and uh and I think that the contractors who have had this stuff for very long time set their own standards about who is allowed to know what and it's a very small group that ever cracks that.
George Knapp
I I worry about the people that are looking at it and don't even know what they're looking at. I mean, it's gone through so many I mean, since since Roswell for instance, I mean, you think there's nobody even alive that was around any of that stuff. So.
Tim Burchett
Yeah, I don't think they've made much progress from the people that I've talked to. I don't think they've made much progress in learning that technology, might have made some, but you wonder, you know, the implication is tic Tac. Oh yeah, that's ours. What what flew over Washington DC in 52, is that ours too? When are they going to break that out? You guys authorize tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars on weapon systems that can't do half of what we've seen UF UFOs do. So when do when do they break this out if it's if it's really a uh a classified project could change the world. I don't think they've made much progress and I think they've been lying to us and to you and the rest of the world and they're still doing it.
Tim Burchett
Yes, sir. I agree with you. Um, how did you manage to obtain the classified Russian UAP documents? and how did you get them back in the United States?
George Knapp
Uh, well, I I met this Russian physicist who was in the United States uh lecturing and I want to clarify that. I can't even take a um a thing of honey home on my airplane when I fly back to Tennessee. So.
Tim Burchett
I did something pretty dumb and And I'm bitter about it, but go ahead.
George Knapp
I I did something kind of dumb. I I met with these officials who, you know, during that time period, Glasnosca, the Russians were trying to open up to the world and I saw it as a window of opportunity and it was. and we were able to talk these folks into providing us information, um, that otherwise we would never have seen. Some of that was classified. What I found out that they they only stamped the top pages of these documents that were classified. So I just removed them. I removed those pages and I I carried them out and if they'd caught me, I'd be in a gulag still.
Tim Burchett
Yeah. We'd be saying, what happened to George Napp? Oh yeah. What happened to the Russians that came forward to you in 1993 and were there any repercussions for them?
George Knapp
Well, there were. The first thing that happened when I talked about this after getting back and and going through the files and things and sifting through it, um, the Russian uh physicist who had helped us uh be introduced all these people, wrote back and said there was a huge eruption that there was uh the the real right or far uh autocratic forces who wanted a return of the USSR had really go after these guys. They described him as traitors. Nicolai Caprioff, the physicist friend of mine, said, look, if this had happened five years earlier, we would be in prison. If it happened 10 years earlier, we would have been shot. Luckily at that point, Putin was not in power, but none of those people that we talked to on that trip in 1993 would ever talk to me again. I went back in 1996 and it was like I had the plague. I spoke to different people, but they were scared. And eventually the the story was spun where the Ministry of Defense officials who gave us this information, uh, were described as ufologists who said there was nothing really significant in these files. They didn't really find anything of a big deal. and I can tell you, you'll see those files that I've shared with you, they did find stuff. There was an incident in October of 1982 over an ICBM base where UFOs popped up, was observed over this base where the missiles are pointed at us, the United States. These UFOs perform incredible maneuvers. They split apart, they fuse back together. They'd appear and disappear and right at the end of this four-hour period, the launch control codes for the ICBMs lit up. Something entered the correct codes. The missiles were fired up and ready to launch and they could not shut it down. The Russian officers were panicking. The UFOs go they they disappeared, the launch control system goes back to normal. Colonel Sokolov and his team came in, took the thing apart, could not figure out what it was. It wasn't a power surge or EMPs or some of the baloney excuses that our country has given for similar events involving our nuclear missiles. Uh, they thought it was a message from wherever the UFOs were from and that's a chilling thing. I mean, that was we were a couple of seconds away from World War III starting and the UFOs were responsible for it.
Tim Burchett
All right. I'm out of time, but real quick. Who are the contractors that have this material? The corporations.
George Knapp
Well, one of them's Lockheed, and I'll tell you, I mean, you know, I'm not saying Lockheed's the bad guys. They're doing what they were asked to do. They've lied about this because that's what they're supposed to do. But Lockheed would be one. There's a list I can give you and Congressman, um, some of the big ones, the the usual suspects.
Tim Burchett
Okay. Thank you. Yield back, chair lady. Sorry for going over.
Anna Paulina Luna
It's all good.
Tim Burchett
It's all George Nap's fault.
Anna Paulina Luna
I now recognize, uh, recognize Mr. Burchet from Tennessee for five minutes.
Tim Burchett
It's what I should be. Number one in your heart, number 435 on the chart. That's me. Uh, Dylan, um, knowing you testified to Arrow, are they obfuscating when they claim to have discovered no evidence of extraterrestrial beings, activity or technology, and are they lying to the American public?
Dylan Borland
Uh, as I said before, it's it's a manipulation of the public perception. The statement scientific evidence of extraterrestrials is a true statement. It is not the truth about what is happening and what we have.
Tim Burchett
You like to comment on that further? Mr. Napp? You're acting edgy.
George Knapp
Well, it's splitting hairs. No proof that they're extraterrestrials. What would that proof look like? Uh a piece of Kryptonite, what would it be? I mean, we could be talking about different forms of non-human intelligence. Uh, I think the dominant paradigm is that they come from outer space, somewhere else and they have some way that they can cross those vast distances that we can't even imagine doing. But not necessarily, that's not necessarily the answer. So asking for proof of extraterrestrials might not be the answer at all. It's splitting hair. Uh, you know, we don't know where they're from. I don't know anyone who knows the answer for sure. They call them aliens just as a placeholder kind of a word, but no one in all these programs who've studied this stuff for years, people with much bigger brains than mine knows the answer for sure.
Tim Burchett
I've talked to Navy folks that some of the deep sea areas, they think there might be something there that they're here. I don't know when they got here. Another point that needs to be made is every time, you know, we say we're going to back engineer or whatever you want to call it, um these crafts. I always say like, it'd be like if you took a, I ride motorcycles, but if you took like an Indian or a Harley to the people that came over here on the Mayflower, you know, they'd see a bright shiny object. They might polish it, you know, they might, they might get it started. I doubt they could. They couldn't, they couldn't work on it. They couldn't put fuel, they wouldn't be able to have the capability of putting fuel in it. I just think that that's, you know, we're just we're scratching at something that we don't have any knowledge of and that's why it's just taken so dadgum long, but they do know the first one that cracks that code. It's it's over. I mean, it's it's energy, it's power, it's everything. and I worry too that in the wrong hands, that they do that. Um, they keep it from the rest of us because they're so invested in whatever energy sources we have here, their billionaire buddies are going to profit and they can't and they can't retool because they know once it's out on the internet, it's over. And so I think there's a lot of things going after it and I think that's why the move to discredit folks is so rapid too. I think, you know, they're just, they point to them and they they put the dogs on them and it discussed me.
George Knapp
There's a price to be paid for that too. The Russians and Chinese are trying to figure this this out as well, but they're they don't have the same kind of stigma. They tell their best scientists and engineers, get in there and work on it. and they've been doing it for a very long time, might have a head start on us. Here, we don't have our best scientists and engineers working on it because they've been told it's nonsense. The stigma is very real for people like that.
Tim Burchett
I agree. You're back, Cher Lady.
Anna Paulina Luna
Thank you. I'd like to recognize Representative Burlson.
This hearing, held by the Task Force on Declassification of Federal Secrets, focuses on Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAPs), government secrecy, and the urgent need for transparency and whistleblower protection. Chaired by Rep. Anna Paulina Luna, the session features testimony from military veterans and experts who have either directly witnessed UAP events or have investigated the government's handling of them.
The hearing opens with bipartisan calls for government accountability. Chairwoman Luna and Ranking Member Crockett both emphasize that the issue transcends politics, touching on national security, the safety of military personnel, and the public's right to know the truth. They express deep frustration with the Department of Defense (DoD) and intelligence agencies for a history of stonewalling, over-classification, and retaliation against those who speak out.
The core of the hearing consists of compelling testimonies from four key witnesses:
- Jeffrey Nuccetelli, a former United States Air Force security forces NCO, details multiple UAP incursions at the highly sensitive Vandenberg Air Force Base between 2003 and 2005. He describes encounters with a "massive glowing red square" and a silent, football-field-sized triangular craft that demonstrated extraordinary flight characteristics. He highlights a pattern of official reports being made with no subsequent guidance or follow-up, and the eventual destruction of these records.
- Alexandro Wiggins, an active-duty US Navy Chief, recounts a 2023 incident involving the USS Jackson where a "Tic Tac-shaped" UAP emerged from the ocean, maneuvered with three other similar objects, and then vanished at an incredible speed without a sonic boom. He stresses the need for standardized reporting protocols and declassification to ensure pilot safety and proper analysis.
- Dylan Borland, an Air Force veteran, shares his 2012 sighting of a large, silent triangular craft over Langley Air Force Base. His testimony primarily focuses on the severe professional retaliation he faced after coming forward as a whistleblower with knowledge of secret legacy UAP programs, including being blacklisted from intelligence community jobs.
- George Knapp, a veteran investigative journalist, provides historical context from his decades of research, including investigations into Russia's extensive UAP programs ("Thread 3") and claims that recovered non-human craft are held by private defense contractors.
During the extensive Q&A session, representatives from both parties question the witnesses about the specifics of their encounters, the nature of the technology observed, and the systemic failure of government bodies like the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO) to be transparent. A significant piece of evidence presented is a recently declassified video showing an MQ-9 Reaper drone tracking a UAP orb over the Middle East. The orb does not maneuver intelligently, and a Hellfire missile fired at, strikes it, and the orb (balloon) breaks apart and falls.
The hearing concludes with a strong, unified message from the task force: the era of secrecy and ridicule is over. Members vow to continue pushing for declassification, strengthen whistleblower protections through legislation, and use their authority to get answers from a resistant Pentagon and intelligence community.