This document is a cleaned-up and structured transcript of an interview with Bob Lazar, focusing on his alleged work with extraterrestrial technology at a secret base known as S4. The questions are from various audience members.
This transcript captures Bob Lazar's question-and-answer session during the Ultimate UFO Seminar at the Little A-Le-Inn in Rachel, Nevada on May 1, 1993. The audio was transcribed and lightly edited by researcher Glenn Campbell in June 1993 for clarity.
The conference took place outdoors under an army tent roughly 50 yards from the Little A-Le-Inn. About 200 attendees listened as Lazar spoke in the mid-afternoon.
The "Alien Bible" & Human Origins
Question: What can you tell us about the "alien bible" you've mentioned?
Bob Lazar: I don't know what you're really talking about with an "alien bible." Some of the briefings that I read dealt with information about us being the product of a genetic modification, but that's about all that I know.
Question: You mentioned a date when they were supposed to return. Is something supposed to happen then?
Bob Lazar: I have no idea. It was just a date, a number that made no sense to me. It was a 601 or 300-something, obviously in a different numerical system. Other than them having created us and done the genetic upgrades—supposedly, if that information is correct—that's all I know.
Question: In one of the briefings, you mentioned the term "containers." What are they and why are we referred to as containers?
Bob Lazar: I can't even guess. All I can say is exactly the way it was written. As soon as I speculate on something, people will lean towards that, and that's not fair.
Question: Did those documents describe a purpose for why these genetic manipulations were being done?
Bob Lazar: This was not a large briefing. 90% of the material I read dealt with my project. When I say "briefings," I mean two sheets of paper with information on whatever else was going on, probably just to alleviate my curiosity. That was it.
Physics of the Craft: Power & Propulsion
Question: I'm interested in the physics of the power generation, from the development of the antimatter to the gravity wave amplification and the process of being able to fold space.
Bob Lazar: That's a pretty lengthy explanation. I can give you a brief overview of essentially how that works.
Essentially, the reactor provides two things: electrical power and the base gravity wave to amplify. It does this by reacting matter and antimatter. An accelerated proton is injected into a piece of Element 115, which spontaneously generates anti-hydrogen. This reacts with a compressed gas—probably compressed atmospheric gas—in a small area. The antimatter reacting with matter produces energy, mainly heat. That heat is converted into electrical energy by a thermionic generator that appears to be 100% efficient, which is a difficult concept to believe.
That's one function of the reactor. The other function is providing the basic gravity wave that's amplified. That wave appears at the upper sphere of the amplifier itself, is tapped off with a waveguide similar to microwaves, and is then amplified and focused.
Question: How is the electrical energy related to the implementation of the gravitational wave energy?
Bob Lazar: The electrical energy is transmitted essentially without wires. I related it to a Tesla setup. It seemed like each sub-component on the craft was attuned to the frequency the reactor was operating at. The amplifiers themselves received the electrical energy just like a Tesla coil transmits power to a fluorescent tube. The amplifiers receive the basic wave through the waveguide. It's very, very similar to a microwave amplifier.
Question: How do you focus a gravity wave on something that's millions of miles away?
Bob Lazar: First of all, I don't think they focus it that far away. I think these trips were made in several small jumps. The amount of precision required to move the amplifier with minimal deviation would eventually exceed anyone's level of technology over that distance. If you're doing a jump of a thousand miles, that's tremendously impressive. I can't see them jumping a light-year, much less thirty. It just doesn't seem possible.
Question: What was the local means of propulsion?
Bob Lazar: The local means of propulsion is them essentially balancing on an out-of-phase gravity wave. It's not as stable as you would think. When the craft took off, it wobbled to some degree. A modern-day Hawker Harrier is much more stable. They use the "Omicron configuration" for that mode of travel. The "Delta configuration" is where they use the three amplifiers for longer distance travel. Those are the only two methods I know of for moving the craft.
Question: Are there any G-forces encountered by the pilots inside the craft?
Bob Lazar: No.
Question: How has this affected your perception of time and space? Is your perception of time, length, width, and height the same aboard the craft as it is off of it?
Bob Lazar: As long as you're on the craft, everything seems completely normal. Your time flows at a normal rate. If you're off the craft and you're comparing the time of someone on the craft to your own, there will be a definite difference. Anywhere gravity is involved, there's a difference. Even the shuttle astronauts experience a slight difference in time when they return because of the difference in gravity.
Element 115
Question: I understand you took some Element 115 home with you to do some testing on your own.
Bob Lazar: I obtained it, yes.
Question: Did you document any of your testing?
Bob Lazar: Yes, mostly on videotape.
Question: John Lear said it was stolen from you later.
Bob Lazar: He said they stole it back. Well, there's another level to that but, as I said, right now it's in private hands. The material they have at S4 is essentially raw. It has to be machined into disks, stacked up, cut into a cone shape, and then sliced. That work is done at Los Alamos. Apparently, they think the little coins they're working on are for some new type of armor. Having worked at Los Alamos and knowing people in that area... that's how I obtained some of it.
Question: John Lear said that a wedge of Element 115, about two inches in length, can power the ship for up to 30 years. How long does it last?
Bob Lazar: It really depends on the energy level. The more energy you expend, the greater the consumption of fuel, just like in any modern machine. It all depends on the amount of energy you request.
Question: You contend that Element 115 couldn't be made here on Earth. What if we found the right bombardment speed and target shape?
Bob Lazar: I imagine with enough time you could make a small amount of it. My analogy is to look at how long it takes to make gold in an accelerator from bismuth. You have to sit there and plug protons and neutrons into an existing atom on an individual basis, and they're not all going to stick.
Question: How do you think they got their first piece of it?
Bob Lazar: I think it was naturally occurring somewhere, perhaps on their planet. It's stable. If that technology was harnessed quickly, chances are they never even considered an internal combustion engine. When they came flying into our atmosphere and saw little cigar-shaped things with fire coming out the back, they probably couldn't conceive of how they were powered. It all depends on what raw materials you have. That it was naturally occurring is just an opinion on my part.
The Craft: "Sport Model" & Design
Question: Is there any significance to the saucer shape? Does the geometry have to do with any resonance?
Bob Lazar: Not any resonance, but it's important. Most of the edges on the craft are rounded because a high-voltage field appears on most of the craft. I'm only talking about one craft, the "Sport Model." There's a small, darker black insulator ring before the last upper bump, and above that is the only place high voltage does not appear.
Question: What about the structure? There were reports from Roswell of a very thin, undamaged metal skin.
Bob Lazar: I called it metal because I slid my hand across it and it was cold and semi-lustrous, but I can't really say that's what it was. From the outside, you can't tell the thickness. When you walk inside, the archways are probably about four inches thick, so you really can't tell how thin the skin itself is or if it's exotic. It appears to be injection molded because there were no sharp objects. Even where the seats meet the floor, it's curved. The analogy I gave is that it looked like it was made of wax, heated until it melted, and then cooled. Everything is completely, perfectly rounded, which is exactly what you want to prevent corona discharge from a high-voltage field.
Question: You're talking about the scout craft, the one that's in the Adamski picture with the three domes underneath?
Bob Lazar: I'm not exactly sure what the Adamski picture is. This is the one that looks like one of the Meier craft.
Question: Did you see any others than that one?
Bob Lazar: I saw nine total, but that's the only one I got close enough to. They varied completely in shape, but I was told they had the same identical power and propulsion system.
Question: How about consoles or displays?
Bob Lazar: I didn't see anything like that. What I call a "console," there are three seats. On the bottom level, you have the three amplifiers in a triad formation. Directly above each one is something I call a console. I think that's a secondary part to the amplifier. The analogy would be that the console is the actual amplifier and the thing hanging underneath is the speaker, in audio terms. I think whatever controls the configuration of the amplifiers—which is basically their navigation—is most probably on the upper level of the craft, which I didn't get to look at.
Life at S4: Research & Security
Question: You seem to feel that the research at S4 was kind of slipshod.
Bob Lazar: As far as the research at S4, it was kind of slipshod mainly because it was being done from a military point of view. It was a weapons development program. They were more concerned with duplicating the hardware as opposed to back-engineering the technology to find out how these theories actually work. They weren't taking a scientific approach, and that was causing some dissension. It was a very disorganized group, and it was very frustrating in that regard.
Question: What was the approximate percentage of civilian versus military personnel?
Bob Lazar: The civilian personnel were scientific in nature, and the military personnel were only security. It was a small percentage of scientific to military personnel. When I came into the facility, I was escorted right to where I worked. Other than the few times I got to walk into the hangar—under escort too—that was it.
Question: How did you eat?
Bob Lazar: The only place I ever ate was at Area 51. If there was a cafeteria at S4, I never got to eat in it. I usually came with Dennis Mariani, he was my supervisor. I wasn't on a full-time swing; I flew in usually between 4:00 and 5:00 at night and left by 11:00.
Question: How many people were on the bus from Groom Lake to Papoose Lake?
Bob Lazar: Very few. Me and Dennis, and occasionally one other person.
Question: How was it you could get some of the Element 115 out of there with such tight security?
Bob Lazar: Some of the material... as I said, the machining work is done at Los Alamos.
Personal Experiences & Controversies
Education and Background
Question: Could you tell us about your education? It seems to vary widely.
Bob Lazar: My degree in Electronic Technology is from Caltech, and in Physics is from MIT. I also went to Pierce College and Northridge. I was at Pierce probably around '76, and Northridge in '77 or '78 for some classes, then Caltech, and MIT after that. My degree from MIT is a Master's, probably in '82.
Question: Some critics have suggested that your records at Caltech, MIT, and Los Alamos have disappeared. Can you reconstruct your coursework and professors?
Bob Lazar: Sure. I've got people that I went to school with, and George Knapp has spoken to some of them. He even flew with me up to Los Alamos and spoke to my colleagues there. As for professors, Dr. Duxler was one at Caltech, and Hohsfield was another at MIT.
Question: Some critics say there is not a Department of Naval Intelligence as shown on your W-2.
Bob Lazar: I've heard people say that. But the bottom line is, and I've let other people check into this... Bob Oechsler managed to trace that down through the IRS. If you write to the address or use the zip code on the bottom of it, it gets to somewhere in the Navy. That's the W-2 that I got sent. The amount of money was correct; no one knew that amount except for me. That's all the information I have.
Getting Caught & Fired
Question: Can you tell us what happened the night you and a group of people were discovered viewing a test?
Bob Lazar: My wife at the time, her sister, and I were going to go out and see what we could see because a test flight was coming up. John Lear knew we were up to something and showed up at the house, so he came along. We drove up the road probably about seven miles, right at dusk. My sister-in-law was driving and stepped on the brakes. We waited. Then someone opened the car door and the dome light went on.
As soon as that happened, two different sets of headlights lit up on either side of us. We said, "That's it, we're dead." I went in the trunk, got my pistol, and ran out into the desert.
The rest of the story is from the people who were there. The security guys came over. John had set up the telescope real fast as an excuse. They asked what we were doing, and he said we were looking at Jupiter. It was pitch black. They eventually told us to get out of there. We took off, and the Lincoln County Sheriff was at the top of the road. That was another major hassle. He wanted to search the car. The big problem was when he asked for everyone's ID. John said, "Wait, mine's in the trunk," and he opened the trunk, and there was all our stuff laying there: Geiger counters, sound equipment, video stuff. That's when the cop decided to keep us for a long time.
Question: Why didn't they just arrest you for violating the National Security Act?
Bob Lazar: They can't arrest me because they'd have to admit that this is classified material. They'd have to release it. As for why they didn't kill me, I really don't know. Maybe it had to do with how I got the job or a connection to Dr. Teller.
Question: So you were never allowed to return to S4 after that? Were you officially fired?
Bob Lazar: That was kind of the turning point. I was never officially fired. They were already going to halt my clearance before that. The main reason I wasn't progressing further was that my clearance was halted. I had signed an order to have my phone tapped for my background check. At the time, my wife was having an affair with her flight instructor, which I was paying for. In programs like this, your family life has to be stable. They were going to wait until the situation resolved itself one way or another.
When I was in debriefing after getting caught, that's when they really started attacking me. That's when they took out the phone transcripts and said, "By the way, Bob, your wife's cheating on you." That was the last time I was there.
Seeing an "Alien"
Question: Can you go into what you saw when you looked through the window in the hallway?
Bob Lazar: This has to be taken in the right context. First of all, being surrounded by flying saucers and knowing the alien thing exists... I was walking down a hall. The doors to the hangars have small, nine-inch square windows with wire mesh. I glanced at one as I walked by, even though I was told to keep my head forward.
I saw the backs of two guys, and they were talking to what looked like a small child. Of course, when I told that to John Lear, he said, "That was an alien." I don't know what it was. It just looked weird; it was just a glance. Do I think it was an alien, though? I don't know. It could have been a life-size model they were using to see how the size relationship works in the seats and other parts of the craft.
Opinions on Related Phenomena
Question: What do you think of the Billy Meier photographs?
Bob Lazar: I have mixed feelings about that. The disc that he took a picture of looks exactly like the one that I worked on. However, some of those photos look unbelievably fake, especially the one with it flying around the tree. It looks like it's hanging from a string. Why would he do that if he had some authentic pictures? I don't know.
Question: What about the Aurora project?
Bob Lazar: The Aurora, I did see once on the way out there. Dennis told me that's what it was. It makes an unbelievably loud sound, like the sky is tearing. From what I understand, it operates on a liquid methane-powered engine. It looked like the old X-15: a very long, slender craft with short wings and a square exhaust that had little veins in it. It's quite large.
Question: What's your take on the space shuttle videos, like from STS-48, that some claim show UFOs?
Bob Lazar: Oh, that's ice particles. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about that. It would be neat if they were flying saucers, but if you see that bright white flash first, that's the positioning thruster firing. Those are station-keeping thrusters. The particles you see darting off are right on the lens. You see a flash, there's a delay, and then particles that are normally floating around dart off because of the impulse from the thruster.
Question: Jacques Vallee has tried to debunk you, saying your report is only that you saw a DVM and an oscilloscope at S4.
Bob Lazar: That's another thing that's gotten so twisted. Jacques came to see me with some producers from Universal Studios. He explained his theories to me, and I said that it had nothing to do with the craft I worked on or any of the technology I was involved with. He really didn't appreciate that. He began to interview me and asked what kind of equipment I had to work with. I said, "A wide variety of things." He asked, "What about your bench?" I said, "Anything you'd find in a normal tech bench—oscilloscopes, DVMs, things like that."
Later, I heard through the grapevine that he's out telling everyone, "Bob Lazar said he back-engineered flying saucers with an oscilloscope and a DVM." I think he was pretty pissed at me for shooting down his movie idea with the producers.
Question: The Cash-Landrum saucer gave off tremendous radiation. How does that fit in?
Bob Lazar: That's obviously not Element 115 technology. I'm not even convinced that was an alien craft. That might have been a government attempt at a nuclear-powered craft—incredibly dirty, obviously. The burns and hair loss point to either gamma or neutron radiation.