{"type":"documents","slug":"1989-12-09-knapp-lazar-interview","title":"On the Record, December 1989, Bob Lazar interview","url":"https://disclosdex.com/documents/1989-12-09-knapp-lazar-interview","description":"Transcript of George Knapp's interview with Bob Lazar on December 9, 1989, discussing Lazar's claims about working on reverse-engineering alien craft at Area-51.","date":"1989-12-09T00:00:00.000Z","tags":["Transcript"],"updated":"2025-06-26T00:00:00.000Z","disclosureRating":3,"connectionCount":4,"content":{"markdown":"\"On the Record\" / KLAS-TV\n\nDecember 9, 1989\n\nGeorge Knapp, producer/host\nRobert Lazar, guest\n\nKnapp: Hello, and welcome to \"On the Record\". One month ago, we began a series of reports about\nUFOs. With the exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been\noverwhelmingly positive. We've had requests for more information from all over the country\nand from all over the World. Tonight we're going to delve a little deeper into the subject with\nthe man who was the impetus for our report in the first place -- Bob Lazar.\n\nBob, good to have you here. A thumbnail sketch of yourself for those who might not be\nfamiliar with your background.\n\nLazar: I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.\n\nKnapp: As a physicist?\n\nLazar: As a physicist and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area S4, for what I was told anyway was\nthe United States Navy.\n\nKnapp: Where is S4?\n\nLazar: It's about 10-to-15 miles South of Groom Lake, about 125 miles North of Las Vegas.\n\nKnapp: How did you get the job?\n\nLazar: I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through. But I was referred to a person at\nEG&G to drop off my resume t. That's where I was interviewed, though the job is completely\nunrelated to EG&G.\n\nKnapp: What did they tell you that you were going to be doing? Or DID they tell you\n\nLazar: No, they really didn't tell me until the very end. They said a high-technology job -- something\nthat I'd be very interested in.\n\nKnapp: Okay, so you get hired. And what happens? Do you fly up there?\n\nLazar: Fly up there. The first day was reading briefings and that sort of thing. And it became evident to\nme pretty quickly the level of technology they were dealing with. Gravitational propulsion and\nthings that Science has really only barely touched on.\n\nKnapp: We'll get into the things that you saw in a couple of minutes. But it's been about a little more\nthan 3 weeks since your identity was made public. We had you on another program a couple of\nmonths ago using an assumed name and having you in silhouette. But since your identity has\nbeen made public and this information has been made public, what's it been like? What's been\nthe response from people that see you on the street?\n\nLazar: The response has been almost all favorable. In fact, everyone that I've run into has been very\nsupportive, very interested. I guess there's just 2-or-3 letters\n\nKnapp: from people that don't believe you?\n\nLazar: Yeah. Essentially.\n\nKnapp: Responses from other media outlets as well?\n\nLazar: Yeah.\n\nKnapp: They want to interview you? What do they want?\n\nLazar: Essentially everything. Yes, radio interviews, TV interviews. A lot of people want to dig back\ninto my background and re-trace everything.\n\nKnapp: Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well were under the impression that\neither you've gone underground or you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark and\nsinister forces. Anything like that happen to you so far?\n\nLazar: That's ridiculous. People are always going over the deep end on that. And no one's told me\nother than originally -- not to say anything. And I'm sure no one's come forward to you.\n\nKnapp: But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.\n\nLazar: Oh yeah! It's the most secret program in the United States.\n\nKnapp: In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?\n\nLazar: Everything up to death threats. I mean constant reminders of it, signing away my constitutional\nrights for fair trial, and that sort of thing.\n\nKnapp: And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?\n\nLazar: Yeah, I believe. I have a tap detector. And occasionally after I pick up the phone, a little red\nlight goes on.\n\nKnapp: The reason you came forward with the information to begin with. Is it related to the fact that\nthey were bothering you?\n\nLazar: Yeah, it was essentially to stop that. What had happened was that I sent in a request for my birth\ncertificate. And as it turned out, it wasn't there anymore like that I wasn't born at the hospital!\nAnd that kind of got me wondering what's going on. I put in a request for some other\ninformation -- previous jobs, etc. and that was also gone. I thought something had to be done\nbefore I disappeared.\n\nKnapp: The same thing -- it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?\n\nLazar: Yeah.\n\nKnapp: Anything happened since the reports have aired?\n\nLazar: They let me know that they were around by doing stupid, childish little things. But nothing\nserious, no.\n\nKnapp: You were worried about your life though for a while there, weren't you?\n\nLazar: That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out on the air. It's a little of\n\"insurance\".\n\nKnapp: Are you worried any more? Do you get the feeling you're \"over the hump\"?\n\nLazar: To some degree, yeah.\n\nKnapp: Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just want more information?\n\nLazar: I think a lot of people believe what I said. But the majority I think do just want more\ninformation, too. It's an in-depth subject.\n\nKnapp: Let's look at some of the technology you saw. When did you first get the idea, what's the first\nthing you saw that made you convinced that it's not from here?\n\nLazar: The first thing was hands-on experience with the anti-matter reactor.\n\nKnapp: Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.\n\nLazar: It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.\n\nKnapp: We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made. You can narrate along. There it is.\n\nLazar: Inside that tower is a chip of Element-115 they just put in there. That's a super-heavy element.\nThe lid goes on top. And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't know what's\ninside the bottom of it ... '115' sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little waveguide\nyou saw being put on the top essentially siphons off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified\nin the lower portion of the craft. But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.\n\nKnapp: Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks really, really simple. Almost\ntoo simple to actually do anything.\n\nLazar: Right.\n\nKnapp: Working parts?\n\nLazar: None detectable. Essentially, the job was to back-engineer everything where you have a finished\nproduct and to step backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made with\nEarthly materials. There hasn't been very much progress.\n\nKnapp: How long do you think they've had this technology up there?\n\nLazar: It seems like quite a while. But I really don't know.\n\nKnapp: What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it do?\n\nLazar: It converts anti-matter [sorry, it] doesn't \"convert\" anti-matter! There's an annihilation\nreaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction a 100 percent conversion of matter to energy,\nunlike a fission or fusion reaction which is somewhere around 8/10 of one percent...\n\nKnapp: How does it work? What starts the reaction going?\n\nLazar: Really, once the '115' is put in, the reaction is initiated.\n\nKnapp: Automatic.\n\nLazar: Right.\n\nKnapp: I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or anything?\n\nLazar: No, there's no button to push or anything. Apparently, the '115' under bombardment with protons\nlets out an anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with any matter whatsoever,\nwhich I imagine there is some target system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat. And\nsomewhere within that system there is a 100-percent efficient thermionic generator -- essentially\na heat-to-electrical generator.\n\nKnapp: How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation that you were talking about\nearlier?\n\nLazar: Well, that reactor serves 2 purposes. It provides a tremendous amount of electrical power, which\nis almost a by-product. The gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through\nsome action of the '115'. As to the exact action, I don't think anyone really knows.\n\nThe waveguide siphons off that gravity wave. That's channeled above the top of the disk to\nthe lower part where there are 3 gravity amplifiers which amplify and direct that gravity wave.\n\nKnapp: In essence creating their own gravitational field.\n\nLazar: Their own gravitational field.\n\nKnapp: You're fairly convinced that science on Earth doesn't have this technology right now? We have\nit now at S4, I guess, but we didn't create it?\n\nLazar: Right.\n\nKnapp: Why not? Why couldn't we?\n\nLazar: The technology's not even We don't even know what gravity IS!\n\nKnapp: Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is?\n\nLazar: Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories about gravity including waves. It's been\ntheorized that gravity is also particles (gravitons) which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave.\nThe basic wave they can actually tap off of an element. Why that is, I'm not exactly sure.\n\nKnapp: So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What does that allow you to do?\n\nLazar: It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time and space. By doing that, now\nyou're into a different mode of travel where instead of traveling in a linear method -- going from\npoint 'A' to 'B' -- now you can distort time and space to where you essentially bring the mountain\nto Mohammed. You almost bring your destination to you without moving.\n\nAnd since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between moments of time. It's such a\nfar-fetched concept!\n\nKnapp: Of course, what the UFO skeptics say is 'Yeah, there's life out there elsewhere in the Universe.\nBut it can never come here -- it's just too darn far.' With the kind of technology you're talking\nabout, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and time and things like that.\n\nLazar: Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no longer a normal reference of time. And\nthat's what producing your own gravity does.\n\nKnapp: You can go forward or backward in time? Is that's what you're saying?\n\nLazar: No, not essentially. It would be easier with a model. On the bottom side of the disk are the 3\ngravity generators. When they want to travel to a distant point, the disk turns on its side. The 3\ngravity generators produce a gravitational beam. What they do is they converge the 3 gravity\ngenerators onto a point and use that as a focal point. Then they bring them up to power and\nPULL that point towards the disk. The disk itself will attach ONTO that point and snap back\nAS THEY RELEASE SPACE BACK TO THAT POINT! Now all this happens in the\ndistortion of time, so time is not incrementing. So the \"speed\" is essentially infinite.\n\nKnapp: We'll get into the disks in a moment. But the first time you saw the anti-matter reactor in\noperation or a demonstration ... You had a couple of demonstrations. Tell me about that.\n\nLazar: The first time I saw it in operation, we -- a friend I worked with, Barry -- just put the fuel in the\nreactor, put the lid on as was shown there. Immediately, a gravitational field developed and he\nsaid, \"Feel it!\" And it felt like when you bring 2 like poles of a magnet together; you can do that\nwith your hand. And it was FASCINATING to do that. Actually impossible, except on\nsomething with great mass! And obviously this is just a And it was a REPULSION field. In\nfact, we kind of fooled around with it for a little while. We threw golf balls off it. It was just a\nreally unique thing.\n\nKnapp: And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is pretty wild stuff, right?\n\nLazar: Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the field off in a demonstration that they created an\nINTENSE gravitational area. And you began to see a small little black disk form. That was the\nbending of the light.\n\nKnapp: Just like a black hole floating around?\n\nLazar: Yeah Well, a black hole is a bad analogy. But yeah, essentially. [StealthSkater note: In\nalter interviews, Lazar said that the UFO projected a \"distortion\" in front. And it would\nbe drawn to that distortion. So maybe the \"black hole\" analogy wasn't too off for a\nlayperson.]\n\nKnapp: And they gave you some kind of demonstration about time involving a candle? Explain how\nthat works.\n\nLazar: Yeah, they took a candle and lit it and put it in the distorted gravitational field, which distorts\ntime. And the candle just stood there. It didn't melt or burn. It was REALLY unbelievable!\n\nKnapp: You had to be floored by seeing all this.\n\nLazar: Oh, I was! That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now because it must sound ridiculous to\neveryone. But it's just phenomenal. I mean, this is really alien technology.\n\nKnapp: About the '115': We talked a little bit about it in the series of reports. Explain what it is again,\nand why you believe it could not be manufactured here.\n\nLazar: Okay, it's a super-heavy element. On the Periodic Chart -- which lists all the elements found on\nEarth and that have be synthesized I think the highest element we've synthesized has been\nabout Element 106. Now from 103 or actually, anything higher than Plutonium up the half-\nlife begins to drop. In other words, the element disintegrates. When you get up to Element 106,\nit's only around for a very small amount of time.\n\nBut Science today theorizes that up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there -- they\nshould again become stable. This is in fact true. That's what Element 115 is. It's a stable\nelement. To synthesize it would be impossible. The way we synthesize heavy elements is take a\nstable element like Bismuth or something like that, Plutonium or whatever put it in an\naccelerator, and bombard it with protons. Essentially what you're trying to do is plug in protons\ninto the atoms and increase the atomic number. To do that to the level of Element 115 would\njust take an infinite amount of power and an infinite amount of time.\n\nKnapp: What kinds of things what capabilities would a heavy element like this have? I mean other\nthan producing power? Obviously, it can produce a LOT of power, right?\n\nLazar: It in itself is not anti-matter. It just has a unique property of producing it. Any of the other basic\nproperties it has, I really don't know of. But using just the anti-matter-producing property, the\npotential for a weapon is staggering! It's absolutely staggering!\n\nKnapp: Like what? A pound of it -- what could it do?\n\nLazar: Well, 2.2 pounds is the energy equivalent of 47 10-Megaton hydrogen bombs. I mean, it's a good\nbang! And a pound of a super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like that.\n\nKnapp: I guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy the whole story is that 'Sure, maybe\nyou work at an area called S4. And maybe it is a secret area. But what you were shown is stuff\nthat we've made.' That we made this '115' -- if it is '115' -- that we made the flying disks, that we\nmade these anti-matter reactors because these are advances that you just don't know about.\n\nLazar: Hardly. [laughs.]\n\nKnapp: Why not?\n\nLazar: Well, the '115' ... it's impossible. And the fact that the main job of everyone there is to find out\nhow everything's made I mean that just contradicts everything right off the bat. The\nmaterials are completely alien to us. And just the overall idea of the project is: \"Hey, can we\nduplicate this with materials that we have here?\" So obviously, it was something that was found -\nor given, for that matter -- and we're just trying to duplicate it.\n\nKnapp: The '115' ... Where do you suppose it came from then? I mean, what kind of environment\nwould that kind of element come from?\n\nLazar: The only place that '115' could be made would have to be in a natural situation, somewhere\nmaybe on the fringes of a supernova or somewhere around maybe a binary star system where\nthere was more mass in the primordial mix of that system. Where heavier elements would have\nhad a chance to form when the stars were collapsing, and there were huge amounts of energy\nbeing released. It's something along these lines. It has to be a naturally-occurring element.\n\nKnapp: You saw an anti-matter reactor. You saw gravity-propulsion systems in flying disks -- flying\nsaucers. You saw this 'Element-115'. You also read a series of reports that had other stunning\ninformation. Can you give an overview of the kind of things that were in these reports?\n\nLazar: The reason I didn't do that before was first of all-- they were just reports. Everything else I\nhad hands-on experience with. Now there was LOTS of strange information in the reports. But\nthere again, it's just printed material and it could be disinformation. I don't know. But certainly,\nthe information I did read in the reports about '115', the disks, the grav I mean, that all had\nmaterial that related to that. The reports went into aliens and even went along the lines of\nreligious\n\nKnapp: Well, we can let our audience know. I mean, we discussed this when we were putting this series\nof reports together whether to get into the alien thing or not. And we decided not to for the time\nbeing. It's not like you're hiding something from the audience or whatever. It was just a decision\nwe made. But you did see reports whether they're true or not. Government reports about aliens?\n\nLazar: Yeah.\n\nKnapp: What were the reports?\n\nLazar: There were photographs of aliens. There were autopsy reports. There was really a wealth of\ninformation.\n\nKnapp: What did they look like?\n\nLazar: The typical \"grey\". I hate to say that like anyone knows what a 'typical grey' is. It's a creature,\nprobably 32-to-4 feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes, long arms, and very thin-\nlooking. I don't know how else I would describe them.\n\nKnapp: What does an autopsy report look like? What's included in an autopsy report that you said you\nread?\n\nLazar: The reason I call it an \"autopsy report\" is I saw the carcass. It was obviously a dead alien. Its\ncarcass cut up and it was all dark inside like it had an iron base. The reason I say \"iron\" is\nbecause it was very dark blood or whatever. I'm not a doctor, but it seemed to be one large organ\nin the body as opposed to identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing. Just one gooey mess\nin it.\n\nKnapp: What did the report say? It had pictures; it had to have some words. \"Here's Exhibit A an\nalien\"?\n\nLazar: Essentially so. They had weights and densities of the organs. They said there was no\nconclusions drawn. It was just a basic description of what the person who was cutting open the\nbody saw.\n\nKnapp: Say where they came from?\n\nLazar: Yeah. In one of the reports, it said they came from Reticulum-4.\n\nKnapp: Where is that? Any idea?\n\nLazar: [laughs] Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli. Reticulum is the constellation. And by\n\"Reticulum-4,\" they meant the 4th planet out from that sun. In the same reports, we were\nidentified -- instead of saying Earth as \"Sol-3\" meaning the third planet out from our Sun.\n\nKnapp: Now you've read a lot of UFO material. Do you find yourself mixing what you've read and what\nyou've learned from up there?\n\nLazar: No. That's why I stay away from the UFO researchers and things like that. I really don't want to\nbe associated with that. I don't research the stuff. It's interesting to read but no, I'm not mixing\nanything that I've read into this stuff.\n\nKnapp: We were just talking about the UFO field in general. And you feel a little reluctant to get mixed\nup in it, although you ARE right now.\n\nLazar: Unfortunately, yeah.\n\nKnapp: Why the reluctance?\n\nLazar: I don't know. There are so many stories circulating around. Everyone has their own view. Each\nUFO researcher says they have the 'right' story. And essentially, I don't want to side with anyone\nbecause I don't know where that information's come from though they do all have the basic story.\nYou know, there are alien crafts here. How they got here is probably aliens brought them here\nunless we really have a neat setup with the UPS. There's just so many different factions of them\n[UFO researchers]. And they all kind of war between each other. I really don't want to get\nassociated with them.\n\nKnapp: Before you got into the program at S4, though, you had an interest in UFOs. It must be hard for\npeople to swallow that here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the program.\n\nLazar: Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to several places. I wanted to get\nback into the scientific field again. Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear and read some of his\nmaterial. And initially, I thought he was just absolutely crazy. But apparently, he did have a\ngood source of information because as it turns out, some of the information that he had I actually\nhad hands-on experience with.\n\nKnapp: But your regard for UFOs in general: As a scientist, did you think there was something to it?\n\nLazar: Absolutely not.\n\nKnapp: Absolutely nothing?\n\nLazar: No. I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.\n\nKnapp: Many of the people who have been calling are UFO groups or UFO researchers who have\ndemanded that you talk to them. \"We've got to talk to this guy.\" \"We want to give him a lot\nmore publicity so he stays alive.\" \"We want him to give us information so that we can further\ncheck out his background, etc.\" \"We want to protect him; we want to help him.\"\n\nYou've resisted. You've done this program. You've done a couple of reports with us. And\nyou've done a radio show or two. In general, you've resisted going into the UFO circuit. Why is\nthat?\n\nLazar: Just like I mentioned before. I just don't want to be associated with those guys. And how many\npeople are you going to open up your background to and let them run rampant through it? I\nmean, private detectives -- every UFO group in the World wants to do that! The idea was for me\nto release the information essentially to protect myself and take some of the heat off. And I've\ndone that. And that's all that needs to be done, really.\n\nKnapp: Certain UFO researchers claim they've been getting information from you all along. You've\nbeen leaking stuff to them. And that they've read these reports that verify the information.\nYou've been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S4?\n\nLazar: Not UFO groups. I did mention a couple of things to some people. That's all I'm gonna say.\n\nKnapp: Okay. In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made to the Government?\n\nLazar: Yeah.\n\nKnapp: And why did you feel that was necessary? I mean, you took an oath, didn't you?\n\nLazar: Yeah. But look at the magnitude of what was going on. I believe that some of the technology\nmaybe all of the technology -- should be kept secret until we have a handle on everything. But\ncertainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a secret from anyone. Not just the\nAmerican people, but the rest of the World.\n\nLet out the basic fact that we have these craft. At one time aliens did at least visit and drop\noff something -- however they got here, that there was some contact made and then cut it short.\nYou don't need to release the information on the gravity generators, the weapon potential\nwhich is enormous and so on.\n\nKnapp: What could you do with that technology? Say you took the flying disks, the anti-matter reactors,\nandthe gravity generators, gave it to Los Alamos or Livermore, let them examine the potential\nabilities of this stuff. I mean, how would this affect life on Earth if this stuff was widely\navailable?\n\nLazar: And mass-producible?\n\nKnapp: Yes.\n\nLazar: That's tough to say. I mean, you have a completely different mode of travel. What happens when\nyou can play with time? That gets into a really deep philosophical question there.\n\nKnapp: But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff. Change everything.\n\nLazar: Oh yeah! It would change absolutely everything!\n\nKnapp: Do you think it will ever come out?\n\nLazar: Personally, no.\n\nKnapp: What do you hope happens, both with yourself and with this information?\n\nLazar: There's been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try and release something.\n\nKnapp: We'll have to have you come back, Bob. Thanks for joining us.","readingTime":"22 min read"},"relatedRecords":[{"ref":{"type":"documents","slug":"1989-bob-lazar-s4-account","title":"Bob Lazar S-4 Account","url":"https://disclosdex.com/documents/1989-bob-lazar-s4-account"},"direction":"inbound","weight":1},{"ref":{"type":"documents","slug":"1997-bob-lazar-don-garlits-interview","title":"Bob Lazar / Don Garlits Interview (1997)","url":"https://disclosdex.com/documents/1997-bob-lazar-don-garlits-interview"},"direction":"inbound","weight":1},{"ref":{"type":"documents","slug":"1997-s4-tape-7-transcripts","title":"S4 Tape 7 Transcripts (1997)","url":"https://disclosdex.com/documents/1997-s4-tape-7-transcripts"},"direction":"inbound","weight":1},{"ref":{"type":"people","slug":"bob-lazar","title":"Bob Lazar","url":"https://disclosdex.com/people/bob-lazar"},"direction":"inbound","weight":1}],"citation":{"canonicalUrl":"https://disclosdex.com/documents/1989-12-09-knapp-lazar-interview","title":"On the Record, December 1989, Bob Lazar interview","publisher":"Disclosdex","retrievedFrom":"https://disclosdex.com/api/v1/documents/1989-12-09-knapp-lazar-interview","license":"CC-BY-4.0"}}